Why is it important that ropes which have been used for rigging operations do not form part of a life support system?

Jacko274849

New Member
Location
Melbourne
Hello guys this is one of my questions I have been asked at school I know you can't climb on a rigging rope. I just don't know how to expand on it.
 

Chris Schultz

Active Member
Location
Minturn
My rigging rope is not handled with the specific care and attention that my climbing rope gets. Rigging line is subject to slams from negative rigged wood, dirt from the ground, knots being cycled under load, constantly getting stepped on by groundies... the list goes on..... not to mention it would perform like shit in most climbing systems. Have I used a figure 8 on the rigging rope to rappel out of a trunk to be pulled over before? Yes. Call me a hypocrite.
 

TheTreeSpyder

Well-Known Member
Location
Florida>>> USA
i think of 2 aspects of rope that get beat out of it, perhaps w/o always notice-able wear.
Strength and forgiveness(elasticity). Elasticity is first to fade. Plus friction hitch rides more predictably smooth on new 'rail'. ( i define friction hitch as Hitch and not Bend cuz hitch rides the 'rail' of the other rope part, and the rail part never takes arc around the hitch like would have to in a proper Bend)
i would beat the elastic response to my flyweight out of a rope some, then downgrade to rigging. Probably no real strength beat out of it, but don't wait forever either. And probably still has elastic response to 300+(2xBodyweight) loads for sure.
Can't say have never used tail to take out piece weighing half what i do with lifeline tail tho; after making sure no loop available to take impact or get load caught in etc.
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After that is just psyche of keeping to a higher order, exemplifying it to self and others; as a reverence for life; even my own(!) of keeping the lifeline gear as pristine as possible. So much so, that any infraction is noted. Some of that care dribbles over/down to rigging as the care is so well exercised to being stronger, not too bad as that happens either.... Rigging lines eventually made to dragging, tiedown and other shorter, utility lines many with DBY in at least one end, if permanent 'dog' rope, usually the end of DBY taped down for cleanest usage AND storage.
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Prefer bright ropes, with contrasting color of tape against rope on ends, and different colors on each of those ends. So can ask for the red end of blue, and better not get the yellow end of blue. Tape should run about 3"+, and should flag outside of knot for enough tail given; and then also forms a creep check, and still lends colored identification of end.
.
i try to $ave all i can on stuff, but learned to treat rope as a wearable resource, like connecting fan belt to other hardwares; and so not look to use forever, in at least the primary position/lifeline. Rope is the softer , deformable, linking device; making rounds to the other devices in chain, picking up any of their ills; just as fan belt.
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i always kept brand new, cherry in the bag next climbing line stored. So that there would never be any bluffing on any rope, if think might should change, then jump to do so with ready rope and downgrade path for old, boom done! Greedily look for excuses to downgrade climbing to rigging line, not just doing so sparingly. Replace climbing line and downgrade old if either climbing or rigging line is suspect etc.. Even talked local store into same, for it never to be any of guilt if anything happened, as always offered and tried to sell rope sitting in plain view. Seems behind counter or that bag tends to grow own legs and wander off to somewheres unknown.
 

Mitch Hoy

Well-Known Member
Location
Rochester
Peace of mind should be a large component here. You should never have to wonder about the integrity of your lifeline while using it. Stress slows you down and affects your decision making capabilities. As mentioned above, lifelines should be treated with respect for the life they hold. At the same time they should also be viewed as expendable when there is any question about their ability to hold that life.

After you see how some companies treat their rigging lines and a couple subsequently break, the rule becomes a simple pass/fail system to avoid slippery slope thinking.

Hope this helps!
 

Tom Dunlap

Here from the beginning
Administrator
THE BEST EXPLANATION I've found is in Don Blair's book, Arborist Equipment. He goes through Cycles to Failure.

Rather than retyping what has been shared so many times....and, essentially, doing your homework for you...I'll send you to your school's library or the used bookstore to read for yourself.

Or...the twenty some years of Treebuzz archive
 

colb

Well-Known Member
Location
Florida
The use of ropes to support people is different than the use of ropes to rig wood. The consequences, while great in both cases, are greater for ropes that support people. Therefore, the specifications of rope construction and use should be expected to be different for people and rigging. To expect them to be the same is not reasonable. A particular rigging rope may be fine for supporting a human in a specific circumstance, but unless it is tested and specified for that use, it is not for that use.

I know someone who puts their car head rest on backwards because they don't like it scrunching them up. It may be fine, but it's probably not a conformation that is rated for use. If they get whiplash from misusing the head rest, the people in their life will bear that burden alongside them.

Just because I can rebel doesn't mean I should. I need to pick my fights.
 

Fivepoints

Well-Known Member
And I have seen old school climbers who will use the tail end of their climb line to rig a top or small branches. They’re perfectly fine. Not saying it’s right but there you are.

None of this back and forth over complicating stuff. Get in the tree and get it done already.
We have a local large company that was still teaching that as of several years ago. No way in my eyes.
 

Chris Schultz

Active Member
Location
Minturn
We have a local large company that was still teaching that as of several years ago. No way in my eyes.
This industry is dangerous enough. I believe risk mitigation is super important, and this practice is creating unnecessary risk. Just because something is there (your rope) doesn’t always mean it’s the right tool for the job. And a large company too...? WTF. Like they cant afford to keep rigging rope available and in serviceable condition or something?
 

Tom Dunlap

Here from the beginning
Administrator
I frequently use this technique

Rapping in the tail of the pullover/rigging rope? Tsk tsk. Poor practice. You know that too.

Who taught you to rig your F8 like that? Please show me where that is an accepted way? The bight of rope is supposed to come through the larger eye in the F8 then the lower portion of the F8 goes through the bite. The bite is supposed to be behind not clipped through the biner. If you’re insisting on using this practice use an F8 that is the right size for your rap rope

There are three strikes. And I’ll toss in backup brake to the F8. You don’t pass the Whistle Test

unacceptable
 

moss

Well-Known Member
Great reminder about loss of elasticity TreeSpyder, I was just pulling my Yale 11.7mm out of a tree, it’s getting on in its years, cover is in great shape probably due to mostly SRS climbing but it feels rigid/dead in the hand, the fibers don’t have that soft feel anymore, time to move it to rigging service.
-AJ
 

treebing

Well-Known Member
Location
Detroit, Mi.
that is an acceptable way to run F8. especially with a large rope. I have always felt that if a rigging rope cant safely handle a 200 lbs person, it should be retired and not be used for any tree work operation period.

I think the idea of not using climbing gear for rigging is because climbing gear is generally much more light weight and can't take the forces used in rigging. the opposite should not be true. I think retiring a climbing line and putting it in the rigging box is more of a mistake than rapelling off a spar with a 3/4 bulline. generally speaking, they are two different sets of tools with little crossover.

climbing gear is only meant for very light loads and so is generally not suitable for rigging operations. rigging gear is generally heavier duty and doesn't make for efficient climbing.

but if you consider your rigging gear could even possibly be unsafe to climb on, then you should reconsider your rigging.
 

Dan Cobb

Well-Known Member
Location
Hoover
climbing gear is only meant for very light loads and so is generally not suitable for rigging operations. rigging gear is generally heavier duty and doesn't make for efficient climbing.
Climbing gear is intended for light loads compared to heavy rigging gear, but with a high safety factor. Seems like 15:1 is pretty standard for life safety, while rigging may be as low as 5:1, so directly comparing the two seems a little apples to oranges to me.
 

treebing

Well-Known Member
Location
Detroit, Mi.
They are two different sets of tools that are not really compatible. my point is that if there is equipment in your toolbox that you dont 100% trust your 150 pound life on, than it shouldn't be in your toolbox period. that said, you shouldnt be using your wrenches as hammers.
 

Tom Dunlap

Here from the beginning
Administrator
Rapping in the tail of the pullover/rigging rope? Tsk tsk. Poor practice. You know that too.

Who taught you to rig your F8 like that? Please show me where that is an accepted way? The bight of rope is supposed to come through the larger eye in the F8 then the lower portion of the F8 goes through the bite. The bite is supposed to be behind not clipped through the biner. If you’re insisting on using this practice use an F8 that is the right size for your rap rope

There are three strikes. And I’ll toss in backup brake to the F8. You don’t pass the Whistle Test

unacceptable


Add this to the above.

The F8 in the picture seems wayyyy too small to generate enough friction with rope that diameter.

I spent some time on Storrick's Vertical Devices page too. The F8's that are compatible with such a large diameter rope are themselves large. Look to the Rescue 8's with ears for compatibility.

I did my own homework...never saw or was taught that mode of rigging. Now I know why.

 
Last edited:

treebing

Well-Known Member
Location
Detroit, Mi.
looks like a really fat and stiff rope. my guess is the standard configuration could generate too much friction to get down the rope at all.
 

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