Two lanyard technique for removals?

Lately I've been using a different technique for conifer removals and I'd like to hear your opinions about whether you think it's safe or smart. I use a Treemotion with a Rope Wrench and a double ended rope lanyard. In the past when spiking up, I would use only one side of my lanyard as a flip line, and cinch my climbing line around the trunk below the lanyard for a second attachment when cutting. A fairly standard operation, in my opinion.

Lately, however, I've been using both ends of my lanyard simultaneously while stowing my climbing line on a gear loop, out of the way. When moving up, I hold both lanyards together in my hands and flip them at though it was a single line. When cutting, I spread them apart on the trunk to prevent accidentally cutting through both at once. I find moving around between cuts to be much faster, since I don't have to attach and remove my climbing line or awkwardly try to slide the cinched climb line up. On the downside, it freaks me out a little bit to not have my climb line attached while cutting, since if I were to cut myself I'd have to attach it to the tree AND to my bridge before being able to descend.

I like my new technique, and since I have two points of attachment I think I'm okay by the book (as long as I don't move to the UK). However if anyone thinks it's a bad idea or has other thoughts, I'd love to hear them.
 

southsoundtree

Well-Known Member
I'm in the camp of a lanyard, and running bowline on a climb line with a compact device, HItchhiker or Akimbo.

Cutting safety corners generals does speed things up.

Tape a couple fingers together, to simulate reduced capacity, pour oil in the hands to simulate slick blood, run around the block to get your heart pounding and adrenaline going, and see how it is, without the pain or panic of a real situation, to hook up your bail out system.

$0.02
I'm in an ultra marathon finishing at the end of my career.
 

Serf Life

Well-Known Member
Lately I've been using a different technique for conifer removals and I'd like to hear your opinions about whether you think it's safe or smart. I use a Treemotion with a Rope Wrench and a double ended rope lanyard. In the past when spiking up, I would use only one side of my lanyard as a flip line, and cinch my climbing line around the trunk below the lanyard for a second attachment when cutting. A fairly standard operation, in my opinion.

Lately, however, I've been using both ends of my lanyard simultaneously while stowing my climbing line on a gear loop, out of the way. When moving up, I hold both lanyards together in my hands and flip them at though it was a single line. When cutting, I spread them apart on the trunk to prevent accidentally cutting through both at once. I find moving around between cuts to be much faster, since I don't have to attach and remove my climbing line or awkwardly try to slide the cinched climb line up. On the downside, it freaks me out a little bit to not have my climb line attached while cutting, since if I were to cut myself I'd have to attach it to the tree AND to my bridge before being able to descend.

I like my new technique, and since I have two points of attachment I think I'm okay by the book (as long as I don't move to the UK). However if anyone thinks it's a bad idea or has other thoughts, I'd love to hear them.
If you cut one side is it just a prussik holding the other or are there some midline stopper knots? Maybe a dumb question, haven't played around with them. Otherwise sounds faster and less fiddling around on conifer takedowns.
 

moss

Well-Known Member
Sliding a Running Bowline down the trunk on a pitchy tree can really suck as many already know. Using (for example) a steel carabiner as your main climbing line cinch solves that, easy on, easy off when it's too much of a pain to slide your cinched line down. A quickie shackle will do as well, a bit more fiddly I suppose.

Wouldn't either of those cinching techniques take away your main issue/inconvenience with having the climbing line as second attachment point? Putting aside for a moment that people will object to cinching with a steel carabiner for a takedown, even though a steel carabiner will never fail in that configuration and it's always in front of you and you should be using a tight eye so there are no issues with it getting into a bad orientation ;-)
-AJ
 

RyanCafferky

Well-Known Member
Look at what ANSI has to say and go from there.

8.1.14
Arborists working from a stem or spar without a suitable natural crotch shall select tie-in points or a tie-in method that positively prevents the climbing line from sliding down or up or off the stem during climbing operations. Placing a climbing line around a stem in an area without a lateral limb is not acceptable unless the climbing line is cinched or choked around the stem or runs through a double wrapped or adjustable false crotch, which is secured/cinched around the stem. The tie-in point selected shall be able to withstand the forces being applied during the pruning/removal operation.

6.3.6
Arborists shall be tied in and use a second means of being secured (e.g, lanyard (work-positioning lanyard) or second climbing line) when operating a chainsaw in a tree. Using two work-positioning lanyards or both ends of a two-in-one work-positioning lanyard shall not be considered acceptable as two means of being secured when using a chain saw in a tree.

EXECEPTION
When the employer demonstrates that a greater hazard is posed by using a second means of being secured while operating a chain saw in that particular situation.


Just tie in with a climbing system AND a lanyard. It doesn’t slow you down that much. Personally I think it is better than slow down and live than speed up and die. Every time I have been injured or made a big mistake it came from rushing. It never came from slowing down.
 

ghostice

Well-Known Member
Ryan/ others - spot on. Trying to rig up a descent line with bloody hands could be quite a production. One thing I would add is that for conifers I prefer to set up with a choked line down with mechanicals - RR, ZiGZag with RW, Uni ( or any of the descenders like ISC D4) - just from point of view of their perhaps coping with sappy rope better than a knot - fiddling with a jammed knot on the way down isn't a big deal normally (although it can be a PITA), but if you're hurt, I'd want a straight shot earthwards with no fuss and one handed operation. Just for fun, if you're right handed say, try operating whatever descent system you're using only with the other hand. You might find it a really different experience, maybe worth practicing and thinking through.

Addenda: Maybe belaboring the point, maybe not - I try set up with any slings/ blocks etc. below my lanyard and choked line - that way if any rigging slips on the stem, it doesn't give your climbing systems a big surprise. I see lots of folks on YouTube do it the other way around but if you go to some of the ISA/ Arborpod stuff, they make a point of setting up with rigging below your tie points. Just sayin'. Sorry if these comments seem to be from the Department of Redundancy Department. Stay safe . . . .
 
Last edited:
6.3.6
Using two work-positioning lanyards or both ends of a two-in-one work-positioning lanyard shall not be considered acceptable as two means of being secured when using a chain saw in a tree.


Personally I think it is better to slow down and live than speed up and die.
Thank you for this, it's exactly what I was wondering about. Both a by-the-book answer and sound advice for life. I do have a quickie that I use for canopy anchors but I might actually start using a steel biner for the situation we're discussing, since the quickie is pretty tough to use repeatedly with winter gloves on.
 

Matthew Stone

Active Member
My quickies are so sharp I don't dare use them in a choked fashion. I've never owned another piece of climbing equipment with such abrupt edges, I typically use them on my saddle as accessory points to clip my hand ascender rig and bags to.
I have moved to a steel biner in choked fashion for most of my removals, as many others do, although I will say I cheat with the double ended lanyard all the time if I'm not dropping limbs. Mechanical on the lower d and a thimble prussic to start the uppers off.
 

moss

Well-Known Member
My quickies are so sharp I don't dare use them in a choked fashion. I've never owned another piece of climbing equipment with such abrupt edges, I typically use them on my saddle as accessory points to clip my hand ascender rig and bags to.
I have moved to a steel biner in choked fashion for most of my removals, as many others do, although I will say I cheat with the double ended lanyard all the time if I'm not dropping limbs. Mechanical on the lower d and a thimble prussic to start the uppers off.
Use the “U” part of the Quickie on the Alpine Butterfly, the slic pin side of the shackle is where the “running” part of your line contacts the Quickie, no edges on the slic pin. The “U” is in the AB, no moving rope there, no worries, at least with any of the Quickie variations out there that I’ve handled.

Maybe you’re already doing that and just don’t like the tiny radius edges, Dremel and some very fine grit sanding will take care of that.
-AJ
 

Matthew Stone

Active Member
Use the “U” part of the Quickie on the Alpine Butterfly, the slic pin side of the shackle is where the “running” part of your line contacts the Quickie, no edges on the slic pin. The “U” is in the AB, no moving rope there, no worries, at least with any of the Quickie variations out there that I’ve handled.

Maybe you’re already doing that and just don’t like the tiny radius edges, Dremel and some very fine grit sanding will take care of that.
-AJ
Thank you, yes it's the radius that gets me mostly. I will choke down my worries and give it a go after some sanding.
 

NailerB

Active Member
"Using two work-positioning lanyards or both ends of a two-in-one work-positioning lanyard shall not be considered acceptable as two means of being secured when using a chain saw in a tree." This has me confused. I had always seen and heard that using two lanyards while cutting was acceptable. I always climb with a steel core and a rope and secure both unless I have a line shot in. Is there something in the terminology I'm missing?
 

moss

Well-Known Member
"Using two work-positioning lanyards or both ends of a two-in-one work-positioning lanyard shall not be considered acceptable as two means of being secured when using a chain saw in a tree." This has me confused. I had always seen and heard that using two lanyards while cutting was acceptable. I always climb with a steel core and a rope and secure both unless I have a line shot in. Is there something in the terminology I'm missing?
Two separate lanyards attached is defacto tied in twice. Double-ended lanyard both ends attached seems like a gray zone. I gather that ANSI is trying to build in the idea that there is always an "escape to the ground" in the mix. I expect Tom D. will have clarification.
-AJ
 

evo

Well-Known Member
Two separate lanyards attached is defacto tied in twice. Double-ended lanyard both ends attached seems like a gray zone. I gather that ANSI is trying to build in the idea that there is always an "escape to the ground" in the mix. I expect Tom D. will have clarification.
-AJ
I’m pretty sure it’s already in ansi where the climber has to have a system installed that can get them to the ground.
 

RyanCafferky

Well-Known Member
"Using two work-positioning lanyards or both ends of a two-in-one work-positioning lanyard shall not be considered acceptable as two means of being secured when using a chain saw in a tree." This has me confused. I had always seen and heard that using two lanyards while cutting was acceptable. I always climb with a steel core and a rope and secure both unless I have a line shot in. Is there something in the terminology I'm missing?
How would anyone rescue you if you were unable to get yourself down and you were hanging on two lanyards? How would you rescue yourself if you cut yourself or were otherwise injured in the tree? You have to be able to escape to the ground in an emergency situation and/or be able to be rescued. A double lanyard configuration doesn’t help with either of those. A double lanyard configuration also does not prevent you from sliding down a spar that you are taking the limbs off or have already taken the limbs off. A choking configuration SRT system or DRT system in a choking friction saver is setting you up for preventing falls, facilitating easy self rescue, and also easy rescue by someone else.
 

ghostice

Well-Known Member
There’s a big difference in the effort required to downclimb (say with lanyard(s) and spurs) v.s. just “rapping” down. Ya gotta be able to come down to the ground on some climbing system (remember the knot in the end of the rope if it isn’t likely to reach all the way down to the deck, so you never rap off the end!).
 
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