SRT Aerial Rescue

COtreerat

New Member
Given that the tie in point is able to support the weight of two climbers, is it a feasible option to use the retrieval side of a canopy anchor( alpine butterfly cinch) as an access line to rescue a climber??
 

Jan_

Well-Known Member
Given that the tie in point is able to support the weight of two climbers, is it a feasible option to use the retrieval side of a canopy anchor( alpine butterfly cinch) as an access line to rescue a climber??
I dont know how this is actually done, but here are my thoughts:
It's theoretically possible, but very unsafe. If you tied of the standing leg of the rope you'd create a base anchor system, but this would leave the climber hanging on a loaded line which might be a problem (climber gets pulled against the trunk or of a limb, etc). If you absolutely need to get the climber down asap, this might be your only option though. It could even allow you to get the climber down without setting up a second system. Still, this is probably only useful in a life-or-death situation, for example if the climber cuts a big artery.

Climbing up the retrieval end without any additional modifications is a big no. You might shockload the system, which could lead to the rope slipping.
 

COtreerat

New Member
Well stated Jan! I appreciate the comment as well. This would be a last resort option for rescue for sure! Thanks
 

RyTheTreeGuy

Well-Known Member
I feel that it should be theoretically possible...obviously an access line set by the climber would be ideal. In an emergency, I feel I would attempt to make a rescue using the retrieval end for initial access and once in the canopy I would deploy a rescue line where I needed it to be. This is not based on fact and have never tried, but I feel that with enough friction the difference in climbers weight would not be enough to slack off the cinch....particularily if it is through a union and not around the stem. Good question and I look forward to hearing some insight
 

theatertech87

Well-Known Member
Why not climb the tail of the victims line? It'll get you there easiest and safest, then transfer to your own independent system for decent

Should probably add that setting your own independent system from the ground first would be best
 

moss

Well-Known Member
Why not climb the tail of the victims line? It'll get you there easiest and safest, then transfer to your own independent system for decent

Should probably add that setting your own independent system from the ground first would be best
Climbing any part of an injured climber's rope system seems sketchy, for example how do you know or not know if any damage has been done to their line or anchor system at the time they were injured?
-AJ
 

colb

Well-Known Member
In rock climbing, there is a speed descent technique where the middle of the rope is fixed over an anchor point and both climbers rappel on their respective sides of the rope. The same thing is commonly done for solo rappel in a sort of trt configuration because it is retrievable. The same simul rappel technique could be used for aerial rescue, and is part of the setup that @oceans uses for rescue on spar. By small extension, the isolated srt anchor is essentially the same thing. The main thing is that you have to deal with the dead weight of the body instead of the live climbing buddy. Last month, a talented climber simul rappelled off the end of his rope because he did not equalize the length of both sides prior to descending. His partner crashed on a ledge and barely lived.
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I think you have reasons to have both rope ends on the deck, but since you're in new territory it's good to revisit assumptions and make sure that you or the dummy do not go off the end of the rope. For instance, if you redirected the retrieval line, which you would not do if it was just being used for retrieval.
 

climbstihl

Well-Known Member
If you ran out of retrieval side line, you could just convert to DdRT by only operating the victims descender. Of course always remember to put a stopper knot on both sides, you can't convert to DdRT if you fall...
 

KentuckySawyer

Well-Known Member
Depending on the situation and the rope configuration this can be a realistic option for an access/rescue line. The whole "counter balance" aspect of climbing on the retrieval side can get weird once the rescuer is in the tree, so to avoid complications, I think it could wise for the rescuer to install an independent canopy anchor for the actual rescue work.
 

SomethingWitty

Arkansawyer
This is something that I've heard some discussion about. The biggest issues are the integrity of the anchor and of the rope.
A midline butterfly/tug setup is fine, but a separate retrieval tail would have to be intentionally set up to be life support. I wouldn't do it if I couldn't clearly see the anchor method.
The counter balancing options are potentially there, but the friction around the anchor keeps everything neutralized well enough that you can just go up and rescue. KISS
@moss it's one that you would only use for very time sensitive rescues. Diabetic shock, anaphylaxis, major bleeding are examples off the top of my head where I might shave a few minutes not setting a line. Minutes rarely matter and seconds never do. If minutes don't, I'm setting my own line.
@theatertech87 there are a couple of reasons, but blood is the biggest one. It fucks up multiscender performance (this was alleged, by the way. I haven't tried.) And it will get in your eyes and mess up your ability to see. It's thick and slippery.
You may also want to avoid coming up under someone to keep from getting kicked in the face/battered in other ways. There are a lot of ways to become delirious or frantic, and it takes a bad motherfucker to just ignore a boot to the face while they're trying to crawl through the crotch of another person to fiddle with stuff.
 

DSMc

Well-Known Member
First rule in rescue is don't become another victim. Climbing an unknown capacity line or setting one in a time-sensitive, high-adrenaline situation, both sound like poor choices to me.
Don't any of you guys own a set of spurs?
 

Burrapeg

Well-Known Member
Coming up under the victim on the tail of his line would be quickest ascent but also no doubt the worst scenario. If he/she is thrashing about, you would be hanging there more or less useless and maybe get the boot in the face mentioned above. If they are bleeding, you get a face full of that trying to work up past them. But no question that taking the time to try and set a second line, given how hard and time consuming that can be even under relaxed conditions, is valuable time lost. Tough call and every situation different.
 

Tony

Well-Known Member
Depending on the situation and the rope configuration this can be a realistic option for an access/rescue line. The whole "counter balance" aspect of climbing on the retrieval side can get weird once the rescuer is in the tree, so to avoid complications, I think it could wise for the rescuer to install an independent canopy anchor for the actual rescue work.
I concur with KentuckySawyer here. In loaded t.i.p. Tests in the field, the load at the anchor, alpine butterfly cinched, was the sum of both climbers weight. Even if the climbers weight was significantly different there was no impactful movement during ascent either way. Either with
a big rescuer and small victim or vice versa.

The ability to form the system into a meaningful counter balance was ify at best, dangerous at worst. The best aspect of the system was, if the climber was positioned away from the anchor, the rescuer could ascend to the anchor, then use the climber’s side of the line to “zip” to his/ her position. This was best effected after a separate rescue-anchor was established, so “speed” was not all that and a bag of donuts.

Having said all that, it is an option, but one I would choose carefully for all the above stated reasons. As always spend more time practicing aerial rescue prevention than you spend practicing an aerial rescue.

Tony
 

DSMc

Well-Known Member
Seriously guys, why the resistance to spurs? They are fast, easy, uncomplicated and dependable. Have we become so blinded by our rope skills that this is no longer even considered an option?

Spur climbing is like running in that it goes well in a high adrenaline situation.
 

Tony

Well-Known Member
Seriously guys, why the resistance to spurs? They are fast, easy, uncomplicated and dependable. Have we become so blinded by our rope skills that this is no longer even considered an option?

Spur climbing is like running in that it goes well in a high adrenaline situation.
I am with you DSMc. If access is necessary and time is on the essence they are most likely the best option.

We have trained many non-tree folk, i.e Rescue/fire crews, spur use and they learn the skills quickly and can perform safe extractions.

Certainly a experienced tree worker should always consider this option.

Tony
 
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moss

Well-Known Member
Seriously guys, why the resistance to spurs? They are fast, easy, uncomplicated and dependable. Have we become so blinded by our rope skills that this is no longer even considered an option?

Spur climbing is like running in that it goes well in a high adrenaline situation.
It takes me 15 minutes to put my spurs on ;-) Don't spur the the victim!
-AJ
 

DSMc

Well-Known Member
Clearly, this is a skill you have avoided learning. Kind of my point, that there seems to be a negative associated with spur work.

Being competent in the use of spurs is a tremendous asset.
 

ghostice

Well-Known Member
Couple thoughts maybe on the above.
In conifers, anyone have comments on SRT up to TIP over a branch, lanyard in, fix a normal prussik on the SRT line and then choke and fix other end of prussik line around the stem - advantage is bigger wood than just the branch and fixed side of SRT ine could now be used for rescue (sorta like working off secret weapon prussik - also could add Alpine butterfly's under each side of the prussik before working off climb line). Just thinkin if that'd work. Conifer branches and such make me nervous, trunk less so. And once your're up there and look it over, you know how good the TIP is.
Other point about coming off your line on a rap - ALWAYS put a figure eight on each end of the climb line(s) before starting out - if anybody doesn't do this before starting up ice in our group of malcontents, they buy that night - usually a pretty big bill! People forget only once. Nobody should ever come off the end of a line.
Addenda: Oh and in rescue it was always, spurs are allowable I thought?
 

COtreerat

New Member
Awesome thoughts across the board here guys! I appreciate the insight and knowledge you all have contributed to this subject.
 

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