Prusik snug, running bowline basal anchor

Tony

Branched out member
Location
Lancaster, PA
One thing that really struck me from CTSP training was if you’re going to introduce a graphic or image, it should never show what isn’t meant to be done, unless it has a giant X around it. Many people rely heavily on visuals for learning and they will take things literally, like how short the tail is. Many people could learn the knot from that graphic and get the wrong impression.
my experience as a trainer has shown me to not even rely on the “big red x method“. As a trainer you are there to instruct in proper technique, not introduce or review bad ones. Big difference.

Tony
 

TheTreeSpyder

Participating member
Location
Florida>>> USA
i know that in real working world up over a crotch and down to Running Bowline seems to work.
>>The choke does seem okay buffered from the main hit and timing.
.
But as a mechanical logic, the pull up the trunk after the 'buffering' Turn, must at end turn 90 degrees/enter another dimension of pull to circle trunk. Therefore has 2dims of loading, so should get 2dims of support architecture for the knot. This would take at least 2more 180arcs, like pre-fix Running Bowline w/Half Hitch.
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This is as ABoK shows virtually all such 'lengthwise' pulls by single leg of pull in the exclusive chapter_22 for the topic( where distilled part of this model from, but also see logic shown in rigid supports/nonRope forms). Single 180 on host (close of seam to Standing Part is NOT a 180 rope part) gives a 1D rope pull utility properly like a hook. 2x180 will give 1D grip potential, 3x180 2D grip potential by this model. More arcs extend the 2D framework, not take to 3D support the way i map/model it. This is also best for lowering vertical load. i would tend to cheat and purpose fully bed turns to deformation, on removal cut small Humboldt on opposite side than Standing Part pull as best, keystone/apex position of a 180 arc.
Would use same 3 arc on host logic trying the presented knot/any seam .
Especially not on a neutral/flat but rather receding taper.
 
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TheTreeSpyder

Participating member
Location
Florida>>> USA
I would counter that per this discussion, the running bowline doesn't just 'seem' to work but actually 'does' work when used and set properly which in no way requires excessive head scratching.
i like naming parts and purposefully placing on chessboard to command an outcome.
180arc over and to Bowline keeps it from unsettling down so much as stabilizer, but that is direction of any expected taper anyway.
i have done this, seen some slip perhaps, just think the 3arc thing is more stable and pattern of structure seen more places in other things.
But simply doesn't have the structure otherwise, against projected pull, as ABoK purposefully shows from mega-collected data and experience, enough to make separate dedicated chapter.
i stay on this track that seems more right and more definable, cuz that has brought me far; and many times can't see the next hill or valley until master this peek.
Personal thang, guess will have to agree to disagree.
i would like the simpler form to be more confidently definable as a positive structure for my chessboard instead of seems to work one. Same as in rigging.
The co$t of more rope around tree usually can be afforded, especially more so than loss at other end.
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i like different color ropes, with contrasting color taped ends, different at each end so could call for red end of blue etc.
i like about 4" tape, sometimes have had 2"red +2" yellow etc.
Leave tape out of knot, also as creep indicator, can even remotely check on block with binoculars even, re-check new climber etc.
 

DSMc

Been here a while
Location
Montana
...
Personal thang, guess will have to agree to disagree...

To be clear, my only criticism is in wording that brings into question this very well proven method for a base tie based on how the bowline responds in other applications. A base tie over a natural crotch will not challenge the strength or integrity of a bowline with yosemite finish when used with an arborist rope of good knot holding qualities.

Standard practice is to set the loop at an angle to the load to guarantee a choking response when load is applied. Both a visual check and physical testing should always follow a reset that introduced slack into this or any other system.
 

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