Growth Regulators?

Jzack605

Branched out member
Location
Long island
Do you think the chemical companies would go to the time and trouble to put it in differently labeled packages if they didn't have to? There's your sign.
I’ll start by saying the label is the law and do not go outside of those guidelines. Period.

that being said I use two products that are exactly the same, Pageant and Pristine. Both are the same AI and percentage rate but one is labeled for fruit trees (pristine) and one for ornamental applications (pageant). Legally I can’t use one for the wrong application.

while there may be a reason I’m unaware of, it always kind of irked me and felt arbitrary. I don’t think it’s some kind of conspiracy for them to get more money though.

I’d love to hear the true reason if anyone knew.
 

Reach

Been here a while
Location
Atglen, PA
I’ll start by saying the label is the law and do not go outside of those guidelines. Period.

that being said I use two products that are exactly the same, Pageant and Pristine. Both are the same AI and percentage rate but one is labeled for fruit trees (pristine) and one for ornamental applications (pageant). Legally I can’t use one for the wrong application.

while there may be a reason I’m unaware of, it always kind of irked me and felt arbitrary. I don’t think it’s some kind of conspiracy for them to get more money though.

I’d love to hear the true reason if anyone knew.
Often, the difference is not the active ingredient(s) but the surfactants and other additives; some of those can also be toxic or have undesirable effects if used for an off-label purpose.
 

Jzack605

Branched out member
Location
Long island
Often, the difference is not the active ingredient(s) but the surfactants and other additives; some of those can also be toxic or have undesirable effects if used for an off-label purpose.
That should be indicated along with the AI correct? To my knowledge there’s no difference between the two on that part of the label, although now I want to double check.
 

ATH

Been here a while
Location
Ohio
No... surfactants aren't listed. They are "other ingredients" or "inactive ingredients". Often what they are using to set themselves apart - especially in more competitive markets. For example, there are 83 flavors of RoundUp so you can pick the one just for your circumstance. One does better here, and another there...
 

Reach

Been here a while
Location
Atglen, PA
That should be indicated along with the AI correct? To my knowledge there’s no difference between the two on that part of the label, although now I want to double check.
As ATH said, surfactants and other additives are not “active ingredients”, so they are not required to be listed on the label. However, they are the difference between a product that works and one that just does not. Also, they are proprietary (top secret!) so no manufacturer will list them for fear a competitor will copy their product.

An example of two products with the same listed active ingredients but two very different sets of surfactants/additives would be RoundUp and Rodeo. Rodeo is labeled for use in and around waterways, whereas RoundUp cannot be sprayed into water. The active ingredient in both is the same, and breaks down naturally and very quickly in water, but the surfactants in RoundUp are harmful to marine life - I would guess they might strip the protective slime off fish, but I don’t know for sure.
 

ATH

Been here a while
Location
Ohio
As ATH said, surfactants and other additives are not “active ingredients”, so they are not required to be listed on the label. However, they are the difference between a product that works and one that just does not. Also, they are proprietary (top secret!) so no manufacturer will list them for fear a competitor will copy their product.

An example of two products with the same listed active ingredients but two very different sets of surfactants/additives would be RoundUp and Rodeo. Rodeo is labeled for use in and around waterways, whereas RoundUp cannot be sprayed into water. The active ingredient in both is the same, and breaks down naturally and very quickly in water, but the surfactants in RoundUp are harmful to marine life - I would guess they might strip the protective slime off fish, but I don’t know for sure.
Good example, except see RoundUp Custom - for terrestrial or aquatic use. Just an example of how things are always changing and you REALLY need to pay attention to the whole label. Even RoundUp is not "just RoundUp"!
 

Chaplain242

Branched out member
Good example, except see RoundUp Custom - for terrestrial or aquatic use. Just an example of how things are always changing and you REALLY need to pay attention to the whole label. Even RoundUp is not "just RoundUp"!
Supposedly Roundup has plant growth hormones added, to accelerate death of plant when herbicide added. Apparently why faster acting than other equivalent products...
 

Reach

Been here a while
Location
Atglen, PA
Good example, except see RoundUp Custom - for terrestrial or aquatic use. Just an example of how things are always changing and you REALLY need to pay attention to the whole label. Even RoundUp is not "just RoundUp"!
I have not encountered that one yet, but I haven’t really done any spraying in a couple years either. I’m not surprised they came out with one that can do both, it’s about time someone did.

We used a couple different versions of RoundUp, but mostly preferred their PowerMAX. It’s less expensive than most as it’s sold primarily as an agricultural product, but the label allowed its use in landscapes, and we could get a 2.5 gal. jug for about $60 most of the time.
 

ATH

Been here a while
Location
Ohio
I paid $55 per 2.5 for RoundUp custom last year. Was doing some invasive species work in a woods with wetlands so needed to find something I could use. Just stumbled across it when looking at a farm store - it was what they had on the shelf.

However, it requires a nonionic surfactant be added...try finding one of those labeled for aquatic use! That was harder than finding the RoundUp. Probably how they for around that label restriction - the glyphosate is fine, but surfactants are not, so find your own!
 

colb

Been here a while
Location
Florida
As ATH said, surfactants and other additives are not “active ingredients”, so they are not required to be listed on the label. However, they are the difference between a product that works and one that just does not. Also, they are proprietary (top secret!) so no manufacturer will list them for fear a competitor will copy their product.

An example of two products with the same listed active ingredients but two very different sets of surfactants/additives would be RoundUp and Rodeo. Rodeo is labeled for use in and around waterways, whereas RoundUp cannot be sprayed into water. The active ingredient in both is the same, and breaks down naturally and very quickly in water, but the surfactants in RoundUp are harmful to marine life - I would guess they might strip the protective slime off fish, but I don’t know for sure.
It may also be that they mess with skin breathing such as used by salamanders.
 

colb

Been here a while
Location
Florida
I paid $55 per 2.5 for RoundUp custom last year. Was doing some invasive species work in a woods with wetlands so needed to find something I could use. Just stumbled across it when looking at a farm store - it was what they had on the shelf.

However, it requires a nonionic surfactant be added...try finding one of those labeled for aquatic use! That was harder than finding the RoundUp. Probably how they for around that label restriction - the glyphosate is fine, but surfactants are not, so find your own!
What surfactants did you find? I've sprayed cattails in the past and they need a lot more surfactant than, say, cogon grass. It's good to be able to add the right amount instead of just pouring a massive rate into every ecosystem I encounter.
 
Thanks for that.

Important points thus far - if I understand correctly - it can break down into something harmful, though I didn't go deep into the rabit hole of hydroxyl triazole. It can be rather persistent in the soil. I'd love for someone more sciencey than I, to give it a read.

"An issue noted in the draft assessment report (EFSA, 2006) was the identification in a column leaching study of the degradate hydroxyl triazole at a concentration of 12 µg/L in the leachate. Even though this degradate was not detected in the soil metabolism experiments, the observation in the column leaching experiment raised concerns for risks to groundwater".

"PBZ has been characterized as an environmentally stable compound in soil and water environments (U.S. EPA, 2007B). Laboratory studies with US loam and silt-loam soils indicated that PBZ degraded with a half-life of more than 1 year under both aerobic and anaerobic conditions."
 

colb

Been here a while
Location
Florida
Thanks for that.

Important points thus far - if I understand correctly - it can break down into something harmful, though I didn't go deep into the rabit hole of hydroxyl triazole. It can be rather persistent in the soil. I'd love for someone more sciencey than I, to give it a read.

"An issue noted in the draft assessment report (EFSA, 2006) was the identification in a column leaching study of the degradate hydroxyl triazole at a concentration of 12 µg/L in the leachate. Even though this degradate was not detected in the soil metabolism experiments, the observation in the column leaching experiment raised concerns for risks to groundwater".

"PBZ has been characterized as an environmentally stable compound in soil and water environments (U.S. EPA, 2007B). Laboratory studies with US loam and silt-loam soils indicated that PBZ degraded with a half-life of more than 1 year under both aerobic and anaerobic conditions."
It seems, superficially, difficult to get the degradate in large quantity since the half life is fairly long... Maybe the degradate is toxic at lower quantities?
 

ATH

Been here a while
Location
Ohio
the identification in a column leaching study of the degradate hydroxyl triazole at a concentration of 12 µg/L in the leachate. Even though this degradate was not detected in the soil metabolism experiments
The way I'm reading that, and it might not be reading it right, is that: in a controlled environment the compound is leaching through soil. However in a setting where there are organisms in the soil that metabolize things they are not finding it...
 

ATH

Been here a while
Location
Ohio
What surfactants did you find? I've sprayed cattails in the past and they need a lot more surfactant than, say, cogon grass. It's good to be able to add the right amount instead of just pouring a massive rate into every ecosystem I encounter.
Must have missed this last year...
Alligare 90
 

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