Can we talk about Municipal projects and the WILD world of bidding them?

[cooperMI4681A]

First ever discussion posted here, so thanks for taking the time to join in. I'm in Michigan and work for a ~$1M/year full service tree company. We're small and we like it that way! I've been taking the lead on several of the last municipal RFP's that we have bid on. Most of this work is sub-$250k projects, and it's almost always for a county road commission, not MDOT. What I've noticed is two distinct characteristics of the contractors that tend to be bidding against us on these projects, and its honestly kind of discouraging. First, there will always be those excavation companies, or construction companies who are throwing out numbers that are stupid low, like BELOW my cost low. That's a total pain in the butt for me, because we take the time to go out and actually make a site visit, drive the proposed project site and take the time to build a competitive number. It sucks to do that just to be cut in half on your price by some yahoo with an excavator, a couple laborers and a dump truck.

The second thing that stands out about some of these guys is the blatant lack of worker's compensation insurance. We all know that that is glaring problem throughout the tree care industry, but it astounds me that these fools are landing sizable contracts with state/local government agencies. They're not correctly vetted, and no one seems to raise any concern about that! I find that to be a total slap in the face of the guys trying to earn it playing by the rules. Maybe you all can chime in with your experience with this type of deal, but I see it as a rash on the industry, and a strike against these agencies who knowingly hire these underqualified contractors. We all know that it won't change, if anything, it will get worse as the general cost of doing business continues to rise.

Overall, the bidding process has been interesting as I've come to terms with our true costs, that has been a huge benefit of crunching the numbers for these larger proposals. I'm still eager to chase these contracts when they make sense for us, but I'm wondering if there's a something I'm not seeing or a tip/trick that you guys have found helps to find and land some of these larger municipal jobs. I think that it's a tough road for those of us who have a higher fixed operating cost, and that just isn't going to change.

I'm interested to hear your thoughts, and it can certainly be related to anything surrounding this topic. Thanks. Have a good night, guys.

 

[Reach]

I would agree with what you are saying there. We have tried bidding on local, state, and federal projects and we are consistently under bid by a combination of large national service providers that simply subcontract someone cheap, and local contractors that do not carry Worker's Comp. insurance on their workers. Yet somehow, they win the contracts.

It is terribly frustrating, as we would like to land some of these contracts, but we will not stoop to illegal and unethical tactics, and we are not going to work for free just so we can win one of these bids.

 

[Brando CalPankian]

No help here, it's not my niche. I could get line clearance contracts, but same gig it's way too cheap. It'd show cash flows and nothing more. Our bang for the buck is the stuff every tom dick and harry can't do.

What's the push to land those contracts?

 

[southsoundtree]

What kind of work?

Buy an excavator and dump trucks???

 

[pcpTR33]

municipal bidding in Michigan is absolutely wild. Some towns put out bids for on call storm clean up others hire “tree” companies to do absolute hack elevations through neighborhoods without any PPE, Safety or Training. This past fall I watched as a worker was driven around while standing in the bucket, no harness mind you, waving around his gas pole saw and peel cutting anything he came in contact with. Also “sealed” bids aren’t sealed, I’ve seen work go to whoever was liked best not best price not best quality just the I know/like that guy approach. I think the mentality of well he’s cut firewood he’s our city forester, I mean I’m personally aware of a city “forester” with no working knowledge, education, or training but gets to determine any trees over 14”DBH qualify for removal and even better listed silver maples as nuisance species so open season on that 40” DBH maple that the new renters don’t like to rake the leaves of.
I understand the efficiency and thought behind using the sennebogen type grapple machines for road reclaims but dear god does it absolutely kill me to see the 8-17” stubs left behind.

Sorry for the tangent but absolutely disgusted at the state of urban forestry in SE Michigan, cut that massive white oak down and the city will plant for you an autumn blaze hybrid with garbage root stock and a mulch volcano for free!

 

[cooperMI4681A]

No help here, it's not my niche. I could get line clearance contracts, but same gig it's way too cheap. It'd show cash flows and nothing more. Our bang for the buck is the stuff every tom dick and harry can't do.

What's the push to land those contracts?

Oh, for sure. We make our money on residential tree work.

We have no real need to expand and land more of those, but it's a secondary goal in 2026 to try and expand our municipal work and especially the contacts we have at those facilities.

 

[cooperMI4681A]

municipal bidding in Michigan is absolutely wild. Some towns put out bids for on call storm clean up others hire “tree” companies to do absolute hack elevations through neighborhoods without any PPE, Safety or Training. This past fall I watched as a worker was driven around while standing in the bucket, no harness mind you, waving around his gas pole saw and peel cutting anything he came in contact with. Also “sealed” bids aren’t sealed, I’ve seen work go to whoever was liked best not best price not best quality just the I know/like that guy approach. I think the mentality of well he’s cut firewood he’s our city forester, I mean I’m personally aware of a city “forester” with no working knowledge, education, or training but gets to determine any trees over 14”DBH qualify for removal and even better listed silver maples as nuisance species so open season on that 40” DBH maple that the new renters don’t like to rake the leaves of.
I understand the efficiency and thought behind using the sennebogen type grapple machines for road reclaims but dear god does it absolutely kill me to see the 8-17” stubs left behind.

Sorry for the tangent but absolutely disgusted at the state of urban forestry in SE Michigan, cut that massive white oak down and the city will plant for you an autumn blaze hybrid with garbage root stock and a mulch volcano for free!

Oh man, the Sennebogens! Cannot stand the guys who think it's ok to prune road trees with those things. It's the same over here!

 

[colb]

RFPs for one and dones sounds difficult, but you could pull public records for similar projects and then plot linear feet (or area if available) vs. cost to make the simplest estimate. Since you live in your community, you will have local knowledge of how the projects differ in the details and you can compare those differences to the RFP.

Road projects are some of the worst for an ISA CA because the road is often pushed to the edge of the ROW and involves cutting roots that are tension roots with respect to private structures, and cutting them in surprisingly close proximity to the trunk. If the project is headed by engineers, there is little/no planning for this, and the liability gets put on the contractor if the project lead engineer is mentally present. This potential situation should be clarified during pre-bid questions.

An RFP might not be awarded to lowest bid, but rather might be ranked according to a rubric. If there is no rubric, there may be grounds to sue. Being responsive to the rubric ensures that your bid is actually in the mix and not tossed in the trash.

If the bid is lost, you can contest it if there are legitimate grounds. Pulling public records after a loss on a substantial RFP prevents your competition from getting off easy and could be your standard procedure if you are in it for the long haul.

Some contractors will try to negotiate terms after winning a low bid. This sucks for everyone. Don't be that guy. If you made an honest mistake on your bid just bow low and get out if you can.

Hth