Basal Anchor for MRS pulley climbing

laddo

Member
Location
New Orleans, LA
Would something like this be safe? Or give me some suggestions! Thanks!!
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• Aim High, Climb Trees •
 

laddo

Member
Location
New Orleans, LA
Why would you make a biner brake out of a figure eight? Why not just use the F8 as a friction device. '

Biner brakes went out of favor sooooo many years ago.

I dunno. That’s why I’m asking. How would you do this differently? Please be specific.
Thanks!!


• Aim High, Climb Trees •
 

Jehinten

Well-Known Member
Location
Evansville
Would something like this be safe? Or give me some suggestions! Thanks!!
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• Aim High, Climb Trees •
I wouldn't choke with a carabiner that you can't watch during your climb. I'd remove all of the basal anchor hardware and replace with a screw link or quickie.

Basal anchoring a doubled system is safe and easier with no isolating, but it does double the amount of weight that the TIP sees. Just something to keep in mind while picking a TIP.
 

Phil

Well-Known Member
Location
Oak Lawn, IL
This is the most critical question to ask during my work day. Why am I using this particular gear? Why am I using this particular method? Why am I choosing this particular route? Why am I using this particular knot? etc. etc. I need to be able to answer this every time I ask the question before I do something. When I don't ask/answer this question before an action...I find myself asking it after. Its often phrased something like, "Why the fuck did I do that?" Then I usually have to fix something haha.
 

rope-a-dope

Well-Known Member
Location
Asheville
Tom's point can be expanded to the KISS principal.
The problem can be solved with rope alone. Everything in the pics is safe enough. One point though:
Basal anchors need to cinch tightly around the stump. Putting friction inside of your choke loop will reduce the friction against the tree which holds your ass up. Learning a midline choking knot will help. Rope on rope will bite down hard and resist loosening.
Or you could go full gear head and get a whole anchor sling and prussik set up and make it lowerable with your 8 and 2 biners?
 
Any BA system you set up has to cope with "flop factor" especially on a smooth barked tree (just like any "lowerable rescue systems should have to cope with the whistle test - "hands off"!). Loosen, tighten, loosen, tighten . . .
I've said it before, maybe see starting at 1:06:30 in Richard Hattier's TreeStuff video (my hero):
Richard Hattier - Rescue, Safety and SRT Webinar
I really like the comment above and continually ask myself "How can the system I'm on get screwed up?" Being somewhat dim, I'm usually less adept at finding this out than just letting the day take it's course and then continually seeing new stuff unfold . . . . almost everyday!

Addenda: “Whistle test” refers to setting up your system so should you have to take your hands off any lowering control device, the system fails safe - the climber being lowered in a rescue say, doesn’t experience an uncontrolled descent. So a system for example with a prussik added would stop the rope feed - an F8 alone or an ATC (still anchored off a trunk girth hitched rope or such so it wouldn't ride up the trunk) would not, if your control hand were to be removed. The F8/ATC in your system still provides the friction/ control for lowering with the prussik collapsed till hands off. Cheers
 
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Tom Dunlap

Here from the beginning
Administrator
laddo

What written material have you read about SRT climbing? Who have you learned from? WHere did you come up with that F8/biner brake system?

These are NOT rhetorical questions, I'd like to know. You're showing an inadequate and antiquated system and wondering if its OK. I;ve NEVER seen an F8 used like that. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt and trusting your sincerity. If I didn't it would be easy to conclude that you're trying to play us for fools. I know, this is harsh, so be it. I'm glad you're trying to learn.

There are SO many belay tools that are better than F8's. Ones that pass the Whistle Test. Do you know what that is? I came across it in the early '90's and it is the filter that all of my climbing systems have to pass.

My base anchor system consists of two or three full trunk wraps spiraling down to a friction device. I've used an Eddy, I'd, four bar rack, Gri Gri and other similar tools. The rescue eight I bought 30+ years ago barely has a rope polish on the coating since it has limitations that other gear doesn't.

Let us know if you need advice for reading material...meaning books, etc. Stuff that has been peer reviewed and edited.
 

laddo

Member
Location
New Orleans, LA
laddo

What written material have you read about SRT climbing? Who have you learned from? WHere did you come up with that F8/biner brake system?

These are NOT rhetorical questions, I'd like to know. You're showing an inadequate and antiquated system and wondering if its OK. I;ve NEVER seen an F8 used like that. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt and trusting your sincerity. If I didn't it would be easy to conclude that you're trying to play us for fools. I know, this is harsh, so be it. I'm glad you're trying to learn.

There are SO many belay tools that are better than F8's. Ones that pass the Whistle Test. Do you know what that is? I came across it in the early '90's and it is the filter that all of my climbing systems have to pass.

My base anchor system consists of two or three full trunk wraps spiraling down to a friction device. I've used an Eddy, I'd, four bar rack, Gri Gri and other similar tools. The rescue eight I bought 30+ years ago barely has a rope polish on the coating since it has limitations that other gear doesn't.

Let us know if you need advice for reading material...meaning books, etc. Stuff that has been peer reviewed and edited.

- I went to tree climbers international in atlanta
- ive read tree climbers companion multiple times
- I am a member of ISA and read every publication for the last 2 years
- I do the same with TCIA
- I apprenticed for almost a year (admittedly with not the 100% best company - the best near me, but far from the best)
- I rec climb weekly
- ive watched/read everything put out by Climbing Arborist
- ive watched/read everything put out by Educated Arborist
- anything free that NATs, Abrormaster, or the like puts out.
- ive read most of what Richard Delaney, Richard Mumford, Taylor Hammel and DMM, all the manufacturers, all the distributors, etc, etc put out there.
- ive read what Treemagineers have published
- ive read papers and articles by guys like Craig Bachmann and Mark Chisolm
- etc
- etc
- etc
- not to mention I frequent forums like the Buzz instead of facebook. I’m not an idiot dude

I am not trying to setup a belay system or a lowerable system. I am trying to setup a base anchor in a different way with shit I spent money on and hardly use. I dont have years of experience, so I am brainstorming here. Sheesh

I have done the homework. Ive found the reliable resources. I understand the concepts. I also try to use my brain and come up with different ways of doing things. Ways that I didn’t necessarily read or see anywhere....but it was something I came up with, and thought it prudent to check with some (normally) eager and knowledgeable fine folk that I usually find on the buzz. Sorry if this is harsh


• Aim High, Climb Trees •
 

Tom Dunlap

Here from the beginning
Administrator
A good base of knowledge.

I think that you're trying to setup a floating false crotch. I'm trying to understand your setup.

Does the green rope with the pulley biner/spliced eye go up into the tree and pass through what you have chosen as your PSP? Then the rope comes back to the ground and goes through your biner brake which is tied off.

If so it would be simpler to anchor at the base of a tree by tieing a midline loop and then choking the green rope around the base of the tree. Do away with all of the gear. I think that all you're achieving is a choked base tie.

Using a pulley in a FFC setup reduces friction for pulling up the rope in the DdRT ascent. But it puts all of your load on the hitch. No friction in your anchor will put all of your weight on the friction hitch. What you'll find is that it locks off hard every time you load it. ALso, when you go to descend you'll slide down a bit faster. In time you'll figure out how to feather the load. But if you do drop hard onto your hitch in a faster descent your hitch will be much harder to unlock again.

In a DdRT system some friction is good.
 

Arborspective

Member
Location
Mineral
And I am just trying to be somewhT creative and come up with other uses for some of my gear. Trying to expand my gear thinking


• Aim High, Climb Trees •
Nothing wrong with that buddy!! Always be thinking outside of the box while staying inside the box of safety!! I urge you to continue playing with gear and finding different ways of doing thing even if it isnt the best way or most efficient. Its all advancment of the mind and innovative thinking is how our industry moves forward and new devices and techniques are created.
 

Flying~Squirrel

Active Member
Location
Tacoma
You've got the green carabiner clipped to the "up" end of the rope, and the orange carabiner clipped to a midline knot, and the f8 isn't doing anything but being a connector between the two biners. Your set up is similar to chaining together 3 connectors when 1 would do just fine.
 

Arborspective

Member
Location
Mineral
If this is just for an anchor for your basel setup because im not seeing a rescue setup anywhere then i would go with something simple like a bowline with Yosemite and an arm reach above an alpine with a caribener and pulley for rescue. Rescuer would run a (mrs) system through the pulley and throw there body weight into it and untie your basel and slowly walk back and can lower the climber. The simplest setup with minimum gear and still easy trained on the rescue part.
 

Stumpsprouts

Active Member
Location
Asheville
If it’s just a midline anchor, I echo what most folks have said- avoid integrating any gear and achieve what you need with a knot. In those cases I take a huge bight and tie a running bowline with it. I would do this for a quick pruning climb, not a lengthy climb. I more prefer to select a length of rope that will not have an excess of rope on either end, and tie a running bowline w Yosemite at the end of the rope.

For a lowerable basal anchor, you have a few options. In those cases I will use a separate 20’ish basal anchor with an eye, and a ring prusik. The eye goes through the ring and a steel biner goes on the eye. Then you add a munter mule with your climb line onto the steel biner. I like this option if you are not working with an experienced climber. The method of untying and belaying someone is fairly simple. The first photo describes this system.

I realized this morning that all you need for that system is just a short hank of life load rope and a carabiner. It’s not as quick to set up and you do have rope on rope contact, but something anyone could try out without having to buy any additional gear.

I also see this is to set up a basal anchor for MRS but as I conceive of it, the principles remain the same, correct me if I’m wrong?
 

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Winchman

Well-Known Member
I'm using the same sort of climbing system as laddo, MRS with a pulley at the top just below the TIP with the pulley held up with an anchor line coming down to a basal anchor around the tree. I also wanted to use stuff I had on hand to put it together. Here's what my arrangement looks like.
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The BA is two wraps of Voyager. One end is a permanent figure 8 on a bight with a big thimble. The figure 8 on the other end is tied each time I climb. The Rope Logic 5/16" Ocean Distel hitch around the Mercury anchor rope is connected to the BA with a screw-lock Petzl Oxan carabiner. That gives me an easy way to adjust it after taking the stretch out of Mercury with a few good pulls. A backup is provided by a directional figure 8 and a second Oxan carabiner. The thimbles prevent rope-on-rope contact and provide a generous bend radius at every connection.

The black binder clip you see is used to attach the thimble for the backup to my Zigzag so I won't forget to do that important part of the setup. I clip it to the ZZ before it goes in the rope bucket.

I've climbed with this arrangement at least fifty times. The Distel has never slipped, so the backup has never been loaded. In the event a rescue lowering is necessary, the backup can be undone easily so the anchor line in the bucket can be eased through the Distel hitch.
 
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Batla

Active Member
Location
France
I don't see the need for a thimble in the eye of the figure 8. As you mentioned it in your description, in normal operation the figure 8 is not loaded and in the case you would need to do a rescue lowering, you would have to get rid of this thimble...
 

Phil

Well-Known Member
Location
Oak Lawn, IL
I'm using the same sort of climbing system as laddo, MRS with a pulley at the top just below the TIP with the pulley held up with an anchor line coming down to a basal anchor around the tree. I also wanted to use stuff I had on hand to put it together. Here's what my arrangement looks like.
View attachment 73958
The BA is two wraps of Voyager. One end is a permanent figure 8 on a bight with a big thimble. The figure 8 on the other end is tied each time I climb. The Rope Logic 5/16" Ocean Distel hitch around the Mercury anchor rope is connected to the BA with a screw-lock Petzl OK carabiner. That gives me an easy way to adjust it after taking the stretch out of Mercury with a few good pulls. A backup is provided by a directional figure 8 and a second OK carabiner. The thimbles prevent rope-on-rope contact and provide a generous bend radius at every connection.

The black binder clip you see is used to attach the thimble for the backup to my Zigzag so I won't forget to do that important part of the setup. I clip it to the ZZ before it goes in the rope bucket.

I've climbed with this arrangement at least fifty times. The Distel has never slipped, so the backup has never been loaded. In the event a rescue lowering is necessary, the backup can be undone easily so the anchor line in the bucket can be eased through the Distel hitch.
I know this gonna sound nitpicky and I may be wrong but I'm pretty sure screw gates are not kosher so to speak. If you are trying to abide by ansi standards of double auto locking life support carabiners that is. I'm sure they're rated for strength.

Aside from that, the friction at your PSP will dictate how tight that distel gets if someone has to lower you. Have you tested it all to see? It might bind up making the whole thing pretty pointless as a lowerable option.
 

Tuebor

Well-Known Member
Location
Here
I'm using the same sort of climbing system as laddo, MRS with a pulley at the top just below the TIP with the pulley held up with an anchor line coming down to a basal anchor around the tree. I also wanted to use stuff I had on hand to put it together. Here's what my arrangement looks like.
View attachment 73958
The BA is two wraps of Voyager. One end is a permanent figure 8 on a bight with a big thimble. The figure 8 on the other end is tied each time I climb. The Rope Logic 5/16" Ocean Distel hitch around the Mercury anchor rope is connected to the BA with a screw-lock Petzl OK carabiner. That gives me an easy way to adjust it after taking the stretch out of Mercury with a few good pulls. A backup is provided by a directional figure 8 and a second OK carabiner. The thimbles prevent rope-on-rope contact and provide a generous bend radius at every connection.

The black binder clip you see is used to attach the thimble for the backup to my Zigzag so I won't forget to do that important part of the setup. I clip it to the ZZ before it goes in the rope bucket.

I've climbed with this arrangement at least fifty times. The Distel has never slipped, so the backup has never been loaded. In the event a rescue lowering is necessary, the backup can be undone easily so the anchor line in the bucket can be eased through the Distel hitch.
Ditch the thimbles - a carabiner connecting the eyes is sufficient. You probably don't need the Mercury clipped to the base anchor at all; just leave a carabiner clipped in the eye as a backup and run the tail through it.

Who is going to do the rescuing?
 

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