balance points for basic rigging

skew

Active Member
I consider the most basic rigging operation to be tying on a limb with a rope through a crotch or block pretty much directly above to limb. When cutting the limb, logic dictates that the cut is made so the piece falls away from the cutter. when the piece being rigged is tied off near the cut the piece is typically "tip heavy" and when it breaks off the bulk of the weight of the piece will fall below the cut.
Something I've noticed watching some known "hot shot" climbers reveals that this basic principle of rigging is frequently ignored. For whatever reason I cannot figure a lot of posted videos show the climber rigging pieces of wood "butt heavy" in which the piece does a dynamic 270 degrees or so flop about. In this flopping about period unless the ground lowers the piece enough it puts the climber in quite a dangerous spot. I can hear the- Oh my groundie is awesome- couldn't happen. Right.
The simple fact is these types of pieces nead a line on the butt to control the swing. Sounds elemental but 'm seeing this time and time again posted on video by many"experts".
It kind of fits in to this whole egotistical cowboy mentality- smoking cigarettes and trundling flips out of the canopy on the latest device whilst making sure it is all captured on your go pro.
 

Chaplain242

Well-Known Member
It is a valid technique, but by the ‘270 degrees’ you mean a 135 degree swing, and a 135 degree swing back at the climber?
 

skew

Active Member
It is a valid technique, but by the ‘270 degrees’ you mean a 135 degree swing, and a 135 degree swing back at the climber?
not accurate estimations of amounts of swing. More about the piece violently swinginging back to vertical and beyond.
 

KevinS

Well-Known Member
Can you post a link to show an example?

‘Simple Rigging’ IMO —>The most straightforward rigging plan (usually) with the least amount of set up and gear required to achieve a safe scope of rigging work needed.

That being said, I’ve tip tied pieces to flop into other more awkward rigging points because it was the best way to avoid a target or clear a fence, etc.

Other times a simple hand held zipline made a basic short order off things. In dead trees a skyhook has simplified my day. On other occasions ginning the tree was the best solution. Or to alleviate the flop a spider leg would do, but then would it fit in the landing zone?

All I’m pointing out is unless you know the site, targets & goals you may not be seeing the whole picture.

What you describe in your post of up to the rigging point and butt tied seems simple but, what if there is an important garden below, what if the only other sufficient rigging point was inline behind the climber and it would have hit him. What if x 1,000,000.
Give us a locked in scenario and we can work it through and don’t get me wrong I see your point on the swing & wobble & possible issues but being that vague I can’t give you a solid answer of my opinions.
 

KevinS

Well-Known Member
not accurate estimations of amounts of swing. More about the piece violently swinginging back to vertical and beyond.
I get the point here but, if this limb is tip tied, it would be on the tree at lets say the 3:00 position as grown. Then once cut the but would have to swing ccw from 9:00 to 12:00 and back. The physics behind that are astronomical!

Not to forget once tip tied and cut the butt(heavy) would swing downwards a smooth rigger alleviating swing by running a distance would reduce a significant portion if not all of the back swing, situationally. So I find this math basic and missing many variables that are factors.
 

Jonny

Well-Known Member

There’s a great little basic video in the first post of that thread. Doesn’t cover everything but it really drives home a lot of the basics and really easy to understand.
 

*useless info*

Well-Known Member
Shock and shake not good.
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Would always look towards carrying load vertical, therefore would always have line Half Hitch to Running Bowline or round sling as hitch. i do not favor simple Running Bowline or eye2eye sling for anything but a right angle pull on load or support.
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Set tight, and set hitch point somewhere closer to CoG, this gives more clearance, self ballast for less violent turn on release AND allows you to set line even tighter as load hinges slowly down that also carries rotation on hinge more than freely on rope so at tearoff line is more near matching load and has is more in position. Don't rotate all the way, you want it to pull away at the end some. Specifically at finish want line angle at least neutral if not slight pull away, and that includes to side as well as down.
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Smooth ballet, not hot shot.
 

Tom Dunlap

Here from the beginning
Administrator
In general my plan is to reduce any rotation of the cut limb.

If the butt starts swinging it becomes a battering ram. More mass in motion with no control

I’ve seen printouts of the load on a rigging point with various configurations. Whew! Load can go redline when butts start in motion

Sometimes it’s part of the well discussed plan so everyone knows.

I agree, there are some cowboy vids that show drama and undue risk
 

Daniel

Well-Known Member
I've been making similar criticism for years. Reg, August, Human, and many others tip tying for no good reason.

Down and away is the way to go. near balance point tie off, leaving the piece slightly tip heavy. allow the early movement to take slack out of the system
 

Serf Life

Well-Known Member
Here's another easy to follow vid that Mark Bridge did with treestuff. His explanation of a balancing technique starts around 7min. Basically he uses a 2/3 rule for a balance point as the foliage end is usually heavier than the butt. Instead of a pre-fab spider leg setup he takes a short hank and uses a Blakes to adjust it.
 

Daniel

Well-Known Member

Here's a good real-world video where the subject comes up as well as a cut or two over the house which actually needed to be tip tied. Human almost killed himself (literally came within 6" of dying) when he tip-tied a monster walnut limb, that helicoptered around the tree and grazed his helmet. But he still didn't learn and was working with another climber in the tree and did a similar thing.
 

samsquatch

Well-Known Member
Here's another easy to follow vid that Mark Bridge did with treestuff. His explanation of a balancing technique starts around 7min. Basically he uses a 2/3 rule for a balance point as the foliage end is usually heavier than the butt. Instead of a pre-fab spider leg setup he takes a short hank and uses a Blakes to adjust it.
I like it. But, they should have supplemented the missing foliage with kale or something! :) 2/3 rule sounds great, but he gave the 2/3 example without the (simulated) weight of foliage and it still worked? hmm..
 

*useless info*

Well-Known Member
My total thought process and focus on this is:
>>load simply blurs to rigid length
>>weightless, except for metal load ball /CoG placed in rigid length as total raw force(like his model shown)
>>can move CoG weight ball to different leveraged points within range of rigid length to play out different effects
>>all efforts communicate thru the rig lever to the CoG for change
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Rope hitch point is (potential)pivot, connects to rigid lever, holding the CoG weight ball
>>unless rope support hits on CoG to hold load at right angle
>>will hang lengthwise and should have dbl grab of
>> round/not eye to eye sling or Half Hitch preceding Running Bowline etc.
distance from pivot to CoG is leverage of CoG
All focus now is CoG and transfer from hinge pivot to rope pivot per rigid length/angles during
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The farther you put the rope fiber pivot/ hitch point out on the rigid lever towards CoG
>>The greater ballast against the opposite/heavier end system has(softer turn to vertical )
>>the greater ground clearance from hitch point down
And the greater drop on hinge to previous tearoff angle,
>>that self tightened rope as it went more,
>>that allowed even more drift down on line before tearoff for more self tightening etc.
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Can play it at also as an angle across to support point, press purposefully down still on rope with load and let rope tighten and pull load around on tighter line
>>forcing stronger hinge and ushered movement
even faking left to go right>>ol'rock around the clock!
>>note as load moves towards support, loosens, so tighten by faking opposite some
Hard to force as strong across hinge otherwise than forcing this across pull
The constant tighter line can about remove impact forces
as hinge becomes disposable butt tie/as previous pivot , release after softly handed off weight to pretightened/by it's own self in the end rope of silkier movement
Can over/under guess pre-tighten;
>>but allowing system to self tighten at end allows Nature to dial in amount needed more..
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i look at whatever point is carrying most of the load as pivot at that point in motion
>>this converts from hinge w/rope helper, to rope as pivot with hinge helper
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Kinda just focusing on using the weight and length of the beast on the pivot given
made to conspire against it's own self, to match CoG /float point
>>as CoG rotates to vertical/unleveraged at end
>>always giving some pull away angle on separation
>>and leaning back to low watching for uppercut to jaw type possibilities; as are playing w/power
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i never put hitchpoint pivot past CoG forcing 'inversion'
UNLESS lots of clearance to make far end pull up out of some pre-existing trap from storm etc.
>>even that can be less violent if close to CoG/fat end as ballast
>>but in this s(h)ituation, strong upwards is probably needed anyway..
So that is only time i set up that 'computer program' of those commands to force to play out empowered by loading with weight force on rope instead of electric to play out setup/code written.
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Saw is like gearshift pacing butt end thru machine stages of:
>>rigid , solid hold has had all it's life
>>pivot of mechanics of CoG on lever, rope assisted
>>inverses to assistant as now working on rope as pivot(define rope as pivot when it bears more than hinge)
>>detatchment.
i think visualizing correct model mechanics of what are watching/commanding
>>lends more to better talking more fluently to and commanding the mechanics competantly
>>slow becomes so smooth it is now fast, in relation to other game plans!
 
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Daniel

Well-Known Member
This is the near-death video that Human (cory) posted showing a tip tied walnut limb come around the backside of the tree and come 6" away from killing him, just grazing his hard hat.

Go to 11:40 on the video. This is what's wrong with tip tying:

 

rico

Well-Known Member
This is the near-death video that Human (cory) posted showing a tip tied walnut limb come around the backside of the tree and come 6" away from killing him, just grazing his hard hat.

Go to 11:40 on the video. This is what's wrong with tip tying:

Tip tying is an essential skillset that any well rounded tree-man needs to have in their tool box. Human's vid simply shows what can go wrong when one doesn't know what they are doing when tip tying. Thank goodness Cory is one tough mutherfucker, and I would bet the farm that he has learned from this mistake.
 
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Daniel

Well-Known Member
you would lose that bet. he did it again with another climber in the tree, but did take the coaching when I pointed it out to him
 

rico

Well-Known Member
Really? Cory once again helicoptered a giant limb, hit himself in the cranium, got tossed around like a rag doll, and nearly killed himself?
 
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