“Safely” taking logs out of tree

Reach

Well-Known Member
Location
Atglen, PA
I think a few things: one is that this is some pretty scary looking work, between the rope that has been tied together in two places, the one-handed saw operation, and the way the rope not only comes off the spar at a hard angle, but the guy on the ground locked that log up far too hard for no good reason. The guy in the lift wearing shorts and no fall arrest harness looks bad to me too. In short, I’m glad they’re not working at my house!

Edit: Upon review of their website, this quote I found seems to sum up my thoughts. “Fair & Square Tree Service located in Alpena, Michigan specializes in high risk tree removal at price you can afford.” I think the “high risk” is the level of risk taken by the guy in the shorts, not the hazard level of the tree.
 
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VenasNursery

Well-Known Member
Location
Michigan
I guess this is how Fair and Square out of Alpena MI take logs down...... whatcha guys think?

Just curious since it says your from Alpena also if Fair and Square your local competition ( probably not much competition ) or have you a former or current employee?

I don’t like anything about this video

If you have no bad intentions with this company why not offer to help them Out

You could save someone

don’t know what I think about advertising bad practices about locals

if I don’t know you I won’t down talk other local companies at least by name

try to help not destroy

you could save someone’s life

just my opinion

we have locals that do the same but they shine their ignorance or and stupidity
 

Tony

Well-Known Member
Location
Lancaster, PA
I think a few things: one is that this is some pretty scary looking work, between the rope that has been tied together in two places, the one-handed saw operation, and the way the rope not only comes off the spar at a hard angle, but the guy on the ground locked that log up far too hard for no good reason. The guy in the lift wearing shorts and no fall arrest harness looks bad to me too. In short, I’m glad they’re not working at my house!

Edit: Upon review of their website, this quote I found seems to sum up my thoughts. “Fair & Square Tree Service located in Alpena, Michigan specializes in high risk tree removal at price you can afford.” I think the “high risk” is the level of risk taken by the guy in the shorts, not the hazard level of the tree.
You nailed it Reach. If there are 5 simple ways to reduce force in a rigging system that also means there are 5 easy ways to increase it. This crew is doing them all.

For clarification, the reason the specialize in dangerous Trees is every tree the do they make dangerous in many assorted ways already noted.

The sad part is they won’t reach out for help, because it is hard to learn something you are convinced you already know. Looking at a few of their other videos it seems they need a class on tree identification as well.

I agree with VersaNursery. If anybody is in there area, reach out to them.

Tony
 

Reach

Well-Known Member
Location
Atglen, PA
You nailed it Reach. If there are 5 simple ways to reduce force in a rigging system that also means there are 5 easy ways to increase it. This crew is doing them all.

For clarification, the reason the specialize in dangerous Trees is every tree the do they make dangerous in many assorted ways already noted.

The sad part is they won’t reach out for help, because it is hard to learn something you are convinced you already know. Looking at a few of their other videos it seems they need a class on tree identification as well.

I agree with VersaNursery. If anybody is in there area, reach out to them.

Tony
Thank you for the clarification on my post, clearly you know what I meant to say, but it could have come out better. Random thought, I just noticed where you’re from - have we met? I am not far from you, and in fact we do most of our work in the Lancaster, PA area.
 

Tony

Well-Known Member
Location
Lancaster, PA
Thank you for the clarification on my post, clearly you know what I meant to say, but it could have come out better. Random thought, I just noticed where you’re from - have we met? I am not far from you, and in fact we do most of our work in the Lancaster, PA area.
Reach, I was not busting your balls, just fixing your joke

I am actually much closer than you know! The family company is based out of Lancaster. I live further east.

I am sure we have crossed paths. I am generally anti social and totaly introverted, unless work forces me to be otherwise. So I tend to slip under the radar when not training or presenting.

Tony
 

Reach

Well-Known Member
Location
Atglen, PA
Reach, I was not busting your balls, just fixing your joke

I am actually much closer than you know! The family company is based out of Lancaster. I live further east.

I am sure we have crossed paths. I am generally anti social and totaly introverted, unless work forces me to be otherwise. So I tend to slip under the radar when not training or presenting.

Tony
My poor wording strikes again! I know you were fixing my joke, and that’s what I meant to imply in my reply, but reading my reply now it looks like I was offended when in fact I was anything but! Clearly a big case of “open mouth, insert foot” in my part, and unintentional at that.

I too am usually rather introverted and antisocial - other than when I am working, or on here. And clearly we are quite close if you live further East, so I am sure we have crossed paths somewhere. I shall have to try to figure out who you are now, whether or not I succeed is no matter, puzzling away at that for a while will be a fun challenge.
 

Bart_

Active Member
Location
GTA
Hi Tony,
Could you briefly run through the 5 ways? I only quickly surmise

lessen the log free fall distance
increase braking/run distance
use plenty of rope to absorb shock force
use overhead rig point friction to cut down rig pulley rope tension doubling
avoid dynamics (but you can't in a -ve rig) (so doesn't count)

thanks
please educate the masses i.e. me too :) and thank you
 

Tony

Well-Known Member
Location
Lancaster, PA
Hi Tony,
Could you briefly run through the 5 ways? I only quickly surmise

lessen the log free fall distance
increase braking/run distance
use plenty of rope to absorb shock force
use overhead rig point friction to cut down rig pulley rope tension doubling
avoid dynamics (but you can't in a -ve rig) (so doesn't count)

thanks
please educate the masses i.e. me too :) and thank you
The article Jonny linked, pretty much sums it up. Since then I have refined a bit of my original thinking, espicialy on what I call rope stretch in the article. Tools and technique has changed, but the basics are the same since tree started growing.

While I would love to take credit for the lsit. It is all Peter Donzelli and Sharon Lilly’s work from the Art and Science of Practical Rigging. Still an excellent resource as is Don Blair’s Rigging for Removal.

It’s funny Peter’s name should come up now as we loom close to the 20th year since he died.

If you have any question or need clarification, please feel feee to ask. If I don‘t know the answer I’ll just B. S you with big words and leave it to you to decipher the truth.

Tony
 

Daniel

Well-Known Member
While I would love to take credit for the lsit. It is all Peter Donzelli and Sharon Lilly’s work from the Art and Science of Practical Rigging. Still an excellent resource
Tony
Hardly.. there is so much practical information left out of that book and video series. Such a failure to include so much is a pretty good indication that the authors simply do not have the sense, or the experience to include it.

Peter is dead because he sideloaded a lightning-struck tree with 4 wraps (so the story goes).

That shows a lack of understanding and application of the most basic principles of rigging. The fact that you hold him in such high regard while failing to answer a simple question reflects poorly on you as a teacher...

Your article just briefly mentions the following concepts with no explanation or diagrams to illustrate.
That would have had a lot more value than telling people to let it run or cut smaller pieces. So I would critique your article much as above. You include a lot of information that has little value to the average reader and almost entirely leaves out the most important concepts of no side loading and creating vectors of force in line with the stem. (to be fair: You did include valuable information about using stretch in the line to reduce shock loads. That was good.)

from page 26
"Changing the angle at the block lessens the load, but alters the direction of the resulting force.
In some situations, this could be desirable, such as creating rigging systems that load the tree and/or tree parts in compression. In other situations, a bending moment could be created and actually enhance the forces acting on the tree in an undesirable way".

The illustration on the same page is about as bad as it gets... who's idea was that?
 
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Phil

Active Member
Location
Oak Lawn, IL
I wasn't going to say anything but after reading many many posts throughout this forum, Daniel is a clearly a professional...troll. This post is the only apple I will ever throw over the bridge to feed you with.
 

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