Using a hand ascender as an anchor.

treeness

Member
I saw this for a second time at the climbing comp, and managed to get real good look at the set up, but I have many questions. I got a picture of it, which I will post later for more clarification, but for now just words. So pretty much it was his ascentree set up on a single line, backed up on the top of the ascender with hitch chord tied in a manner like the secret weapon set up, just a bunch of wraps then connected to the ascender by a beaner. Then he had a beaner with a hitch climber with a beaner in it attached to his ascender (I'm not sure if he clipped this into an alpine butterfly set below the ascender to spike it), and his double rope system ran through that. He foot locked single line to where he wanted to go, spiked his line with a knot (I'm assuming I couldn't get a good look up in the air, but I heard him say he spiked it), and then just worked off his double rope.

I tried it out in the shop today with a pinto pulley instead of the hitch climber, sterling continuous loop in a 6 coil prussik instead of an e2e with a bunch of wraps, and cheated with my foot ascender and footloop from my hand ascender. It worked great however this is where I want clarification before I put it to use.

Is this safe even with everything backed up? Is the ascender fine backed up with just the hitch chord above and a knot below, or is the hitch climber set up better? I have a petzl ascension ascender, which on the website says it has a breaking strength of 5kn to 6,5kn (for larger ropes), is that just the breaking strength of the cam, or the whole unit? Is it still fine to use a toothed cam on 24 strand double braid? Is there a better ascender choice for this method?

Yes I am aware the rope wrench exists, and why not just work like that. But I like this system as it has the best of both worlds, and I don't have to wrap my head around SRT right yet, and can be belayed down incase of trouble. Any help would be appreciated.
 

Tom Dunlap

Here from the beginning
I've NEVER been comfortable having a handled ascender being the anchor in SRT. Having some sort of 'backup' above isn't good enough...to me anyway.

There is so much evidence of why handled ascenders shouldn't be used in a setup like this. Sure...it's convenient, but, why not transfer to an line loop, clip your DdRT in...and climb?

I know...I'm in the minority and out on the fringe...but I do know that I'm not alone out here...there are others who have shaken their heads and wondered why this is sanctioned. Even more that wonder why the RW and a lot of SRT isn't sanctioned...but, we've been down that stream many times.
 

Tony

Well-Known Member
The final act for this climber should have been to disengage the cam of the ascender. You don't want to load the ascender on the host line in that configuration.

The total weight of the double rope climbing system should be on the prussic, just like a straight forward secret weapon set up, with the stopper knot within 18" of the prussic.

The frame of the ascender should be rated to 22 of 23 Kn I think canada is 22 but that is for you to know. Not all ascenders have this rating. I do not know about the ascentree. Again that is for you to know!

Having said all that, I agree with Tom, you are going to be tying a knot under the system anyway, just tie a appropriate loop knot (or two in a doubled rope) and clip your climbing system in to that under the ascender. Same thing, much more stable, less chance of begotten woes!

Tony
 

chris_girard

Well-Known Member
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I agree with Tom, you are going to be tying a knot under the system anyway, just tie a appropriate loop knot (or two in a doubled rope) and clip your climbing system in to that under the ascender. Same thing, much more stable, less chance of begotten woes!

Tony

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Same here. I agree completely with what Tom and Tony are both saying.

There are just better (or should I say safer?) ways to setup your system for this type of climbing.
 

scrat

Member
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I agree with Tom, you are going to be tying a knot under the system anyway, just tie a appropriate loop knot (or two in a doubled rope) and clip your climbing system in to that under the ascender. Same thing, much more stable, less chance of begotten woes!

Tony

[/ QUOTE ]

Same here. I agree completely with what Tom and Tony are both saying.

There are just better (or should I say safer?) ways to setup your system for this type of climbing.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree as well.
I have and use both the Petzl ascentree and futura, I have noticed that the lower holes in the handles, where I attach my delta link, they have peened over just a bit from my weight static on them. And having seen what toothed cams do to a rope when dynamic loads are applied....
would like to see the picture thou
 

chris_girard

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not alone out here...there are others who have shaken their heads and wondered why this is sanctioned. Even more that wonder why the RW and a lot of SRT isn't sanctioned...but, we've been down that stream many times.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's for sure Tom, and at the moment, that stream has been dammed up pretty good!
 

JeffL

Well-Known Member
If you like that setup, try setting up your Ddrt system with the pinto on a loop as a prussik above the ascender. You are still advancing your system with the ascender, but not directly supported by the ascender. Then when you get to the top, simply stow the ascender, spike your line and go to town. One thing I figured out doing this is put a slipped stopper in above your ddrt hitch, otherwise as you ascend, you'll find yourself getting pretty up close and personal with the pinto pulley as the weight of the line below will suck up any slack pretty quick as you create it.

Just one option.
 

treeness

Member
Yeah this is more of a monkey see, monkey want to do type scenario haha. I'm not overly thrilled with the idea of tying into an ascender regardless of back up. Jeff that sounds like the winner in my books, took me a bit to figure out the slippery aspect but I hit my ah-ha momet. Anyways heres the pic I snapped.
 

Attachments

oceans

Well-Known Member
I'm thinking I would be most comfortable with that system if my bridge was tethered to the prusik/biner above the ascender. When you reached a point at which you intended to work off the DRT pulley, you could suspend from the prusik, release the cams of the ascender, and pull a bite of access line out between the prusik and ascender to spike the line. To me, that would be the most effective way to prevent the potential of a cam tearing up the access line.
 

Caballos

Member
You could also use a longer hitch cord and attach the hitch to the carabiner that your system is on, essentially bypassing the acender. It would also reduce the amount of gear you need (at least by one biner).
 

oceans

Well-Known Member
Oh, Kevin...you know I love the Wrench, and still use it despite not having the QR pin. I'm going for a ZK-2 as soon as possible. I was just looking at that system in the photo and thinking that the two (hitch & ascender) are meant to back each other up, but the simplest way is to climb SRT 100%. I need to dive back into the rule book.
 
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