used a few ropes on this one

Daniel

Well-Known Member
So what your telling us is that for some strange reason the HO told you what the high bid was before you made your bid? Once again my bullshit meter is red-lining!
Ya, that surprised me too...


I saw all the footprints in the snow when I got there and knew he had someone else looking at the tree. I said something about it and he just came out with it, like he needed to get it off his chest
 

CanadianStan

Well-Known Member
It was 3:1 MA system, not 8:1, and I recall that the GRCS has 1800 lbs of lift, so 1800 x 3=5,400 -friction guestimate 400= 5,000 lbs... That tree would have stood up pretty quick if we had had 28,000 lbs ......

I was actually going to go with 1/2" double braid as the second line and save the heavier rope (in case it was needed for the truck pull), thinking that at 1,800 lbs, the GRCS would easily keep that rope to 20% SWL.. Another old tree guy was there and was dead set against the idea, so I went with the heavier line...

I'd guess the truck was pulling about 5,000 lbs as well (2,500 on each leg)

What was not shown on camera is that I did switch out the support line from just through the fairlead of the GRCS to the overhead redirect block. I had originally just snugged it up as seen, but the climber wanted more pull on that line, so it seemed best to use the block since it was already set up... I have bent those fairleads before..

The climber tied into a neighboring tree before the tension was taken off the original support lines, which were triangulated. IMO once those lines were triangulated and the tree stood up, the leaner was the best supported tree in the woods, but hey, it wasn't my life at risk...

That said, we did consider that the tree may have gone over backwards, but the stretch on those lines was only going to move it so far and the tree still had enough lean to make the going backward scenario near impossible..

It all seems pretty simple in retrospect, and I attempted to keep the, "this is just another tree" calm mindset during the operation. We really just took our time setting all the ropes up and found a climber that wasn't afraid.. He made $300 for about 1.5 hours work... Had my regular guy balk without even seeing the tree..
I can’t believe no one picked up on the GRCS use ... Daniel mentioned it has 1800lbs of lift

You should know full well what you’re using, it’s abilities AND limitations ... the GRCS can apply a 44:1 mechanical advantage. Let’s say the average grown man can apply 150lbs of force ... that’s 6,600lbs. Not 1800. If you’re tripling forces you don’t understand, you may want to rethink your strategy

Now I think this whole situation is funny. Bid what you want but I FEEL as though the customer didn’t get $6000 worth of work. Bearing in mind the risks and dangers associated with it
 

Daniel

Well-Known Member
Hi Stan,

At the risk of sounding condescending (that means I talk down to people)...... maybe you should do some homework before you spout a bunch of nonsense disguised as math.......
Here's an offer for you: I'll bet you an amount up to $1,000 US, that the lifting ability of the GRCS is closer to 1,800 lbs than 6600 lbs..
 

rico

Well-Known Member
I'm gonna oblige Tom and we can talk tree work. We are all here to discuss and learn after all.

1. We will start with Daniels notion that these trees where 120-150 ft tall. Nonsense. Plain and simple.

2. I would suggest that moving this tree 30-35 feet was totally unnessesary, and actually dangerous. Let remember what that stump and root system looked like folks. Moving it that far put a lot of stress on the already compromised stump, and the vertical crack in the butt log. All that was really needed was to clear it from the other tree, and keep tension on it.

3. Its hard to tell, but judging by the very steep rope angles it sure looks like the pick points on the guy lines were way too low. Running guy lines at 360% wasn't really an option here so you really needed to get those guy line as high as humanly possible. Guy line pick points above their tie off point is best case scenario. Setting your guy lines that low with those steep angles makes it very easy for slack to get into the system if the tree starts to move. When that happens your fucked. She's gone!

4. Not Demanding that your climber was tied into a nearby tree for the entirety of the job was malpractice. Straight up! Whats the life of a courageous young climber worth? $300?

5. Not taking the few moments necessary to strap up the first 30-40 ft of that vertically cracked butt log was more of the same. Laziness? Ignorance? Malpractice? You tell me.

6. The side loading issue with the lowering device is big. These thing are designed to be vertically top loaded, and using them in a side-wash scenario is asking for trouble. If something goes south on you, your device isn’t gonna do its job and it simple rotate around the tree it is attached to. Not a good thing when someone’s life, or someone’s home is on the line.
 
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Daniel

Well-Known Member
Well I do not play that game. It stinks of having no class. I am not directing this at anyone on here. I am just voicing how I was brought up. Money matters should not be aired in public.
I was raised like that too.. You don't talk about money in public. Pretty sure that near the top of the list for Emily Post.

didn't stick though... That said swing.. There's been plenty of banter on this forum about how much climbers make, or how much people are paying for equipment, labor, insurance, advertising, how much would you charge for this tree etc.. How much do you charge for stump grinding? .. is this the first time you bring up that all being bad manners????
 

Daniel

Well-Known Member
I'm gonna oblige Tom and we can talk tree work. We are all here to discuss and learn after all.

1. We will start with Daniels notion that these trees where 120-150 ft tall. Nonsense. Plain and simple.

2. I would suggest that moving this tree 30-35 feet was totally unnessesary, and actually dangerous. Let remember what that stump and root system looked like folks. Moving it that far put a lot of stress on the already compromised stump, and the vertical crack in the butt log. All that was really needed was to clear it from the other tree, and keep tension on it.

3. Its hard to tell, but judging by the very steep rope angles it sure looks like the pick points on the guy lines were way too low. Running guy lines at 360% wasn't really an option here so you really needed to get those guy line as high as humanly possible. Guy line pick points above their tie off point is best case scenario. Setting your guy lines that low with those steep angles makes it very easy for slack to get into the system if the tree starts to move. When that happens your fucked. She's gone!

4. Not Demanding that your climber was tied into a nearby tree for the entirety of the job was malpractice. Straight up! Whats the life of a courageous young climber worth? $300?

5. Not taking the few moments necessary to strap up the first 30-40 ft of that vertically cracked butt log was more of the same. Laziness? Ignorance? Malpractice? You tell me.

6. The side loading issue with the lowering device is big. These thing are designed to be vertically top loaded, and using them in a side-wash scenario is asking for trouble. If something goes south on you, your device isn’t gonna do its job and it simple rotate around the tree it is attached to. Not a good thing when someone’s life, or someone’s home is on the line.

More nonsense.... with the exception of the trees not being 150' tall.. some of them could have been 120 though, or close to it.... I was ad libbing and made a mistake at 150, then brought it down to 120 as a correction.. 100 to 120 would have been more accurate... Maybe I could have edited that video to cut out 150, but really liked the whole intro as one long unedited piece...
 

colb

Well-Known Member
How about you all?


Would you have walked on this job?

Taken it at what price, knowing the other guy wanted 10 k and waiver for driveway damage...

Then not knowing whether the tree action could be stood up or not it's easy to 2nd guess a job want you seen it done on video a little more difficult when you're standing in the woods looking up at a treated you have no idea whether it's going left out of that ogre not
To me, it's hard to tell without being there. I can't tell how big the tree is, I can't tell the spatial alignment of the targets and the trees, etc. I feel like I would have secured it to the tree it was already in, then taken out everything above the attachment point. But maybe that was right above the driveway. Feels like a 2-3k tree, mainly for hazard pay. For normal time, I'd give myself a day with a ground employee to allow plenty of time to piece it out. My day rate for that would be $1200 - $125 for employee, $400 for me, and the rest for operating and development. On video, it looks 80 feet tall, but I'm not up north in your woods and I know things look smaller from the ground. If it was really 120-150 feet I might want a day and a half. Point is, it's hard to tell, but 6k does seem bountiful, lol. I'm not judging you for taking it. I've had a couple tree jobs where I lost money and several where I made a small amount. I want the bigger pay days to make up for those other days. I'm not living the big life, so I'm fine with charging people.
 

colb

Well-Known Member
I can’t believe no one picked up on the GRCS use ... Daniel mentioned it has 1800lbs of lift

You should know full well what you’re using, it’s abilities AND limitations ... the GRCS can apply a 44:1 mechanical advantage. Let’s say the average grown man can apply 150lbs of force ... that’s 6,600lbs. Not 1800. If you’re tripling forces you don’t understand, you may want to rethink your strategy

Now I think this whole situation is funny. Bid what you want but I FEEL as though the customer didn’t get $6000 worth of work. Bearing in mind the risks and dangers associated with it
I think the capstan bolts shear at 3500 lbs. Check me on that... I'd hate to be wrong. U did ask what the nature of grcs failure is and at what point it fails, and the answer i remember was that the four bolts holding the capstan to the aluminum plate fail at 3500 lbs.
 

CanadianStan

Well-Known Member
Hi Stan,

At the risk of sounding condescending (that means I talk down to people)...... maybe you should do some homework before you spout a bunch of nonsense disguised as math.......
Here's an offer for you: I'll bet you an amount up to $1,000 US, that the lifting ability of the GRCS is closer to 1,800 lbs than 6600 lbs..
1- If you decide the person you're speaking to can't understand the word "condescending", maybe employ simpler terms to communicate effectively with that person. Explaining "condescending" in parentheses after using it, is very much condescending. I'm not sure where you were heading with that.
I'm well aware of what it's "deadlift rating" is, but it doesn't change how much force you can generate with the device. At any rate, it's not 1800 lbs ;) By the way ... this bet is worth $5000, not $1000 ...
If you're applying a MA inline with the GRCS you're exceeding these abilities anyways
 

swingdude

De' Island Buzzer
I was raised like that too.. You don't talk about money in public. Pretty sure that near the top of the list for Emily Post.

didn't stick though... That said swing.. There's been plenty of banter on this forum about how much climbers make, or how much people are paying for equipment, labor, insurance, advertising, how much would you charge for this tree etc.. How much do you charge for stump grinding? .. is this the first time you bring up that all being bad manners????
Daniel more in reference for charging for services rendered. Equipment, insurance et al are all kosher. Anyway you guys carry on. the tree came down safely and a fence was broken. It is what it is.
 

Daniel

Well-Known Member
The big tulips that I was pointing to as I entered the backyard were the ones I said were 150 or 120 feet tall... There was around a foot of difference in dbh between the big ivy covered tulip and the leaner.... So I never said the leaner that we were working on was 120'... And I have owned a 75' bucket truck since 2011... I PROMISE YOU that the leaner was well over 80'
 

Daniel

Well-Known Member
1- If you decide the person you're speaking to can't understand the word "condescending", maybe employ simpler terms to communicate effectively with that person. Explaining "condescending" in parentheses after using it, is very much condescending. I'm not sure where you were heading with that.
I'm well aware of what it's "deadlift rating" is, but it doesn't change how much force you can generate with the device. At any rate, it's not 1800 lbs ;) By the way ... this bet is worth $5000, not $1000 ...
It was a joke.. but the bet is serious.... I smell money!!!!
 

CanadianStan

Well-Known Member
I think the capstan bolts shear at 3500 lbs. Check me on that... I'd hate to be wrong. U did ask what the nature of grcs failure is and at what point it fails, and the answer i remember was that the four bolts holding the capstan to the aluminum plate fail at 3500 lbs.
Check out this sweet video of the GRCS catching Volvos

*Edit: Wrong video. Fun to watch nonetheless* There is some car catching at 9:00
 

evo

Well-Known Member
Hi Stan,

At the risk of sounding condescending (that means I talk down to people)...... maybe you should do some homework before you spout a bunch of nonsense disguised as math.......
Here's an offer for you: I'll bet you an amount up to $1,000 US, that the lifting ability of the GRCS is closer to 1,800 lbs than 6600 lbs..
That is condescending as fuck.

Older Grcs were rated to 2k deadlifts I can speak from experience that they can generate loads greater than this, it does wear the person cranking out quickly.

The newer units are rated for up to a 3k deadlift.

The handles are designed to fail if loaded near the machines breaking point.

Shock loading or dynamic loads are a entirely different animal.

I can pull my mini’s weight with a grcs, naked it clocks in at 2,700 and I guess the grapple is another 3-500
 

Daniel

Well-Known Member
Daniel more in reference for charging for services rendered. Equipment, insurance et al are all kosher. Anyway you guys carry on. the tree came down safely and a fence was broken. It is what it is.
To be absolutely honest with you... the main reason I put the $ in the title was because I was trying to attract views and hopefully subscribers.. I thought it was a novel and catchy title.... My goal was to get 1,000 views in 24 hours. As the day went on it became clear that in order to do that I had to post links all over the tree forums and facebook...

While the vid did get a lot more early views than my normal ones do (with a few exceptions), it didn't create much of a bump in subscribers...
 

owScott

Active Member
owScott was 2,000 tops

I think colb was 2,000 as well...

That's getting somewhere, but everyone is saying what the tree was worth for what they saw in the video.. Would the prices still be the same if they had been walking around the woods looking at all the options and potential issues... And then after the client says he had a price for 10K. would that have altered your prices... The crane damage waiver was a big issue in my mind... If your tree company damages the neighbor's driveway he could be pissed at you for years to come, and end up having to pay thousands in repairs...
owScott was 2,000 tops

I think colb was 2,000 as well...

That's getting somewhere, but everyone is saying what the tree was worth for what they saw in the video.. Would the prices still be the same if they had been walking around the woods looking at all the options and potential issues... And then after the client says he had a price for 10K. would that have altered your prices... The crane damage waiver was a big issue in my mind... If your tree company damages the neighbor's driveway he could be pissed at you for years to come, and end up having to pay thousands in repairs...
I have looked into a 450 ton crane
Ya, that surprised me too...


I saw all the footprints in the snow when I got there and knew he had someone else looking at the tree. I said something about it and he just came out with it, like he needed to get it off his chest[/QUOT
owScott was 2,000 tops

I think colb was 2,000 as well...

That's getting somewhere, but everyone is saying what the tree was worth for what they saw in the video.. Would the prices still be the same if they had been walking around the woods looking at all the options and potential issues... And then after the client says he had a price for 10K. would that have altered your prices... The crane damage waiver was a big issue in my mind... If your tree company damages the neighbor's driveway he could be pissed at you for years to come, and end up having to pay thousands in repairs...
I don't sign crane waivers not to crack driveways I get a bigger crane and set up in the street. 450 ton crane, $700 an hour, 400 ft of boom was that possible? A 10k cut and leave crane job is total BS. So saying they saved for 4k isn't true. Sorry, for all the screw ups with my reply not to slick with the computer
 
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evo

Well-Known Member
To be absolutely honest with you... the main reason I put the $ in the title was because I was trying to attract views and hopefully subscribers.. I thought it was a novel and catchy title.... My goal was to get 1,000 views in 24 hours. As the day went on it became clear that in order to do that I had to post links all over the tree forums and facebook...

While the vid did get a lot more early views than my normal ones do (with a few exceptions), it didn't create much of a bump in subscribers...
Nothing catchy about that. Humbly and bluntly it just makes you looks like a hack.

I am guessing here but $10k for that tree sounds like a pass bid. So coming in under it isn’t much to brag about. If you are looking for more views and popularity you won’t get it down the road your on.
 

Daniel

Well-Known Member
400 feet of boom wouldn't have even been close on this tree, if you were planning on putting it in the street...

Edit.. just checked Google maps and going by the measure of their scale it was about 660 feet from road to road, with the tree being pretty close to dead center. SO probably 300-320' from the nearest road. the neighbor's side was steep uphill from the road and either way you probably would have had to pick over the roof... And how long does it take to schedule a 450 ton crane??? I was there the next day...
 
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colb

Well-Known Member
Check out this sweet video of the GRCS catching Volvos

*Edit: Wrong video. Fun to watch nonetheless* There is some car catching at 9:00
Yeah, there's some tree sex in there. I love it. If I'm being critical just for fun, I'm looking at the car bottoming out on the ground on those runs and wondering how much force that absorbed. The Volvo is *not*, lol, 3500lbs at that moment though - pretty sure! But, things like rope elongation and friction on the bollard all affect the force laid out in the video. Alongside this amazaballs video, I'd like to see some tight testing results. It's something we all could benefit from. First time I used my grcs I pulled a ~20" sweetgum upright from a 20° lean. When the grcs reached max tightening and stopped, I went home for the night to consider my next plan. I was pretty sure I had overloaded it. The next day I went back out, cranked a little bit more, and got movement. I opened up the winch and there were metal "hairs", ground off the tips of the gear cogs and just floating in grease. I realized that the grcs has limits and that it is a powerful tool that nonetheless needs to be used correctly. Anyone else feel like they could understand their grcs better?
 
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