The problem with tip tying

Daniel

Well-Known Member

It's so important to analyze every mistake, no matter how minor and learn from it. That's a huge safety factor and one of the best things about video. It allows us to review exactly what happened, often in slow motion. I've watched a lot of your videos and have been mightily impressed at how fast you developed as a climber, faller, rigger. That said, I would invite you to change your attitude. You dismiss your mistakes regularly, losing valuable opportunities to learn and improve.

We all make mistakes. I curse mine and feel so bad about even the little ones, then review them over and over until some way to make sure it doesn't happen again becomes clear.

There was zero reason to tip the limb at 5:24. That monster walnut limb you tip tied in the "near death" video helicoptered around the tree and came 6" away from killing you, 100% DEAD! What did you learn from that? Apparently not!!! If you had but tied the piece at 5:24, it would have swung down and away. There was plenty of room. So why did you tip tie it? That's the question you need to ask yourself if you are going to learn anything here.

It was clearly close enough to scare the other climber. You could hear it in his voice when he called for the goundie to let the piece run. That's a helpless feeling. Then when he was trying to say so in a nice way, rather than apologize and try to learn from it , you just laughed, justified it, and dismissed his concern for safety. While there are no physical consequences to that near miss, there are definitely mental consequences.

It's like a groundie that stands just a little too close to the drop zone. He may in fact be safe, but if the you have to think about it, for even a second before making the cut, it throws your concentration off. Now Brian's fight or flight response has been triggered and he's thinking about you, should he be up there with you?, is he safe? what will you do next?... Perhaps all very subtle thoughts in the back of his mind, but enough to throw off his concentration
 
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Daniel

Well-Known Member
Highlighted reply
Lise H1 minute ago
A thoughtful and above all CONSIDERATE comment. I doubt very much your words will accomplish very much for the person they are primarily directed at though. It takes courage to stand and say what you've said. It doesn't take courage, rather shows an overall disregard, to emphasize and at the same time minimize the dangers and risks in the kind of work you do. I believe this holds true in life in general, and appreciate your presence in an all too often casual, cavalier, and even careless and sarcastic venue (YouTube) and in society as well. I can't even imagine you standing at the end of a video saying anything like 'my job is done, make a mess and leave', nor using unnecessary disrespectful language. Thank you Daniel Murphy for your presence in the world, your respect for not only the people you work with and for, but your respect for the trees, nature, and the balance of life in general. I know this is a LONG reply, but the tone of Brian's? voice, and the knowledgeable explanation of what and why, really hit home for me. I'm far to old and have old injuries to start climbing, but I've been fascinated since when I was ten or eleven my father hired I believe it was Lucas Tree Service, to trim, put drains in, and treat (with something that ultimately didn't work) the beautiful American Elm we had in our front yard. It was at the relative beginning of Dutch Elm Disease, which gives an idea of my age. If I were near you geographically I would come camp on your doorstep and stick to you like tight bark wanting to be one of your 'groundies'. Not to mention running a skid steer, rigging, inspecting ropes and lines, and coiling them with beautiful precision. All for the privilege of watching and learning. Kindly, Lise H Liberty, Maine
 

moss

Well-Known Member
Yeah the other climber's look after the tip-tie rattled around a bit said it all. I would've been thinking or more likely saying "Mother f'ker" out loud. Would not work in a tree with the Human after that. Did a tip-tie yesterday on a piece, put the trunk between myself and the rig as a back-up defense in case it didn't go as planned. It went very well, the pivot point in the rig above the piece was just right, groundie nailed it with just the right slight hold then let it run. Not saying I'm a better rigger blah blah only that I'm super cautious and really analyze before committing to the rig. Takedowns are a weird dance of elegance and brutality, ya got to be grounded and calm, and know how to push irrelevant thoughts like "I need to go faster" out of your head. I'm saying that to myself, we're all vulnerable to it.

I listened to an interview with "Free Solo" climber Alex Honnold the other day. He talked about the intense analysis and planning that goes into his climbs, the goal being that when he stands at the base of a wall, he is so confident in knowing what's going to happen next, fear is not present. In that context I think what he's actually saying is that irrelevant and extraneous thought (including inappropriate fear) is not going to enter his mind. This is a possibly underestimated highest level mental discipline, the ability to go into the strongest possible focused state towards accomplishing a task. Something to aspire to for tree climbing and tree work.
-AJ
 

rope-a-dope

Well-Known Member
I work with a guy that gets "lucky" a lot.
I dread working with him because his method is attack everything with a saw as fast as he can reach it. He has been in sales for a while, but now is back on a crew and has made a bunch of dumb mistakes. I watched him cut through a hinge two days in a row. One narrowly missing a fence thanks to a lucky deflection, the other was a rotten maple stem 8' long he was trying to push off its lean which somehow hit the air unit right underneath when it came off sideways as soon as he moved it.
Basically, im telling the other guys to stay the fuck away if hes cutting, cause he is a hazard. If someone is always laughing off mistakes and giving weird excuses to brush off blame, watch the f#ck out.
 

Jem4417

Well-Known Member
It’s all about the Heinrich pyramid recently adjusted to the ctsp pyramid. Where attitude and improper training is the base of the pyramid, then you have near misses , then minor injuries then when the percentages of all these things add up but are not documented and corrected the product is major accidents or fatalities. My description is a rough one. @Tony tony tresselt gives a very good summary of how your state of mind and improper practices can increase your probability of an accident
 

rope-a-dope

Well-Known Member
God you should have seen the size of stuff he was snap cutting out of the bucket! Like whole 6-8" diameter limbs and tops that drop violently, negative rigging by hand, barely under control. Why?!?!
 

Jem4417

Well-Known Member
I see guys tip tying so far out on limbs or wood all the time and even if it’s beneficial to have the butt fall first it nine times out of ten its better to balance it more by bringing your knot closer to the middle so the piece comes off with more control instead of dropping so forcefully. Gives the ground guy more of an advantage at the porty or Bollard so they don’t have to compensate for the shock load to control the piece on the way down
 

skew

Active Member
Yeah man the laughter and comment of it not even being close says all I need to know. If I’m not mistaken this gentleman has already fallen from a tree and was injured. Honestly having two guys aloft that close during removals is a lot going on. Most proficient climbers can easily produce enough for a couple of guys in tight quarters.
 

Daniel

Well-Known Member
God you should have seen the size of stuff he was snap cutting out of the bucket! Like whole 6-8" diameter limbs and tops that drop violently, negative rigging by hand, barely under control. Why?!?!

That's tough on the joints too.. elbows, wrists, shoulders.. I generally like to go big, but not when its a repetitive injury scenario
 

swingdude

De' Island Buzzer
I have just watched a few of Human's vids. He is very confident, but lacks skill set. Some good cutting at times but some awful cuts also. Trees he is doing look straightforward but he is overthinking. Lots of room IMHO. This guy cut himself out a tree if I remember. Maybe TIP broke. Well he should not be training that guy in a tree he is removing. The gent was not sure on gaffs. And after nearly hitting him laughs. 5 feet miss he says. He scared the dude. Brian should not be in tree period. His voice can be super irritating too. Aw well takes all kinds. Stay safe Human. These mistakes you need to learn from. Slow down and think. Oh he also seems to love cutting through his hinges.
 

Bucknut

Well-Known Member
Maybe referring to using a block or x-ring?

I don’t have a problem with natural crotch rigging on a removal generally. Do it all the time. I never rig it like he has it though. I do a quick half hitch below the notch. Keeps the rope aligned with the notch, not wrapped around the blind side of the cut.
 

TreeCo

Well-Known Member
Maybe referring to using a block or x-ring?

I don’t have a problem with natural crotch rigging on a removal generally. Do it all the time. I never rig it like he has it though. I do a quick half hitch below the notch. Keeps the rope aligned with the notch, not wrapped around the blind side of the cut.
A half hitch below the notch tied so it does not chase the climber.


The way it was rigged the ground man may have given a slight pull and pulled it right into the saw. There was lots of room for natural rigging.
 

New2trees

Active Member
As Swingdude points out in post 12, Human took a fall from a weak blind tip a long time ago and broke his pelvis and several other parts....very lucky to not be paralyzed IMO. After a long recovery he is back in trees but seems to have adopted new tactics.

As others have said Youtube is a "skairy" place to learn to be an arborist LOL....I used to watch a lot of Humans stuff and thought it was the norm, till I saw some by August and others then it was glaringly apparent that I needed to be more selective.

12/30 addition...Just noticed this vid is from a few days ago, I had not watched any of his channel in about a year since his first couple of climbs after his accident, sadly it seems his prior to fall, casual attitude returned quickly
 
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New2trees

Active Member
Of course his technique was a lot better than this guys.....PS Before anyone watches, I would never post this except the guy by the grace of God was able to return and finish the job the next day.

 
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