So the U.S.Army is sent in to fight the forest fires in California

oakwilt

Well-Known Member
#1
Where are our tree people?

They get paid for tree work. The soldier's won't. That's our U.S.A?

Jobs and consumption. Trump and his brain-dead worshippers.

Changes are mandatory. No debate.
 

ATH

Well-Known Member
#2
Not the first time... prisoner crews have been used for many many years as well.

Also, it doesn't take tree people to dig hardline. In fact, I'd argue an arborist is no more qualified than a soldier to do that. There are a lot of Foresters and forestry staff from around the country that help with interagency fire assistance. They generally have a fair amount of training in Wildland fire management. Soldiers are already on government payroll....pretty good option for a temporary labor.

Are you willing to drop serving your clients to go fight fires for 3 weeks?
 

oakwilt

Well-Known Member
#3
I couldn't and know how deadly it can be. These fires aren't what we knew. Arson didn't help.

I'm certain though that people can help more in daily commitments. Climate isn't what the greedy wanted but end effects are..
 

evo

Well-Known Member
#4
I'm making it my goal to get my red card this off season. We have a fire in the olympics, and its basically a lost cause, hold the east, and south front, and hope for the best as it burns into old growth cedar and spruce. 200' + ers in there..
 

evo

Well-Known Member
#5
Not the first time... prisoner crews have been used for many many years as well.

Also, it doesn't take tree people to dig hardline. In fact, I'd argue an arborist is no more qualified than a soldier to do that. There are a lot of Foresters and forestry staff from around the country that help with interagency fire assistance. They generally have a fair amount of training in Wildland fire management. Soldiers are already on government payroll....pretty good option for a temporary labor.

Are you willing to drop serving your clients to go fight fires for 3 weeks?
yes, now I am.. In my back yard at least.
 

Tom Dunlap

Here from the beginning
#8
The Incident Command structure that NIFC uses eliminates the possibility of skilled arbos working on a fire crew until proper training is completed. It may be frustrating but IC is a great formula for getting projects completed properly. If an IC structure would be applied and followed by commercial arborculture fewer people would be injured or killed. It would also be way of professionalizing our profession. The public knows there are pro fire fighters and they're respected. Wouldn't it be nice to be treated like that?
 

oakwilt

Well-Known Member
#9
Yes. For the profession itself. Excellent proposal.

Its not Mazda hiring unemployable hard coal miners but it could change entire depressed and Oxyconton'ed and Hydrocodoned rural communities.
Tourism could increase
 

oakwilt

Well-Known Member
#10
I'm just thinking about when - looks like sooner than we expected - real tragic consequences occur in coastal area's for certain, happen now, our cities. Down towns, whole neighborhoods, our farms close by, our food supplies?
Suburburbs are what? Who we are?

That's worrisome. I think we got thinking to do. Now and continually. Or not.
 

ATH

Well-Known Member
#11
The Incident Command structure that NIFC uses eliminates the possibility of skilled arbos working on a fire crew until proper training is completed. It may be frustrating but IC is a great formula for getting projects completed properly. If an IC structure would be applied and followed by commercial arborculture fewer people would be injured or killed. It would also be way of professionalizing our profession. The public knows there are pro fire fighters and they're respected. Wouldn't it be nice to be treated like that?
The Incident Command structure certainly works very well for both wildfires (that is where it was developed) and other large events and/or disasters, but I'm not sure it is a great fit for day-to-day operations in arboriculture.

There were a couple specific challenges that the ICS was designed to address:
1) Span of control. This was taken from military structure. The idea is that a single person can only effectively manage 5-7 individuals, max. So within a crew (about 20), you have 3 squad bosses that report to the crew boss. Individuals within the crew take their orders from a squad boss, not the crew boss. The crew bosses report to Division Supervisors who report to the IC (incident Commander). Depending on the size of the incident, they may be other layers in there...perhaps the Division Sups report to the tactical commander...who reports to the IC. Then there are other folks handling weather, air ops, media relations, GIS, equipment, food, showers, laundry, etc... And the Safety Officer who is responsible for everybody and answers to nobody (to a degree) - if the safety officer says "this can't be done that way", the IC and others need to find a new way to do it. That is extremely rare - they spend more time helping each crew make sure they are doing well and aware of the hazards around them.
2) Many wildfires are managed by individuals who are not full time firefighters. It used to be, the guy who was the boss back at the office was the boss on the fire...regardless of his qualifications. The ICS is designed to break through that paradigm and use people where they are most qualified. If an underling at the office has been through the training and years (probably more like decades) of experience on mentor-ship it takes to be a Type 1 IC, he will be the IC...the office bossman may be best fit swinging a pulaski.

So why don't I think this structure is the best fit for every-day arboriculture:
1) Outside of utility clearance, it is rare we are working with more individuals than fall under the span of control. Companies that are running multiple crews are already set up with crew leaders...each individual crew is rarely big enough to need to be broken into squads.
2) This IS everyday. Where the ICS allows people to break out of their everyday role if they are a better leader for the temporary role...we want the best leaders in their everyday role.

Having said all of that, what we SHOULD learn from the NIFC is their rigid training structure and requirements that you shadow others before advancing. Not much of the training is hard, per say, (smoke jumper training excluded!), but you do NOT run a saw on a fire unless you have taken and passed the S-212 class. And there are progressive classes for larger diameter trees. There are classes for pumps, ground crew for helicopters, running the equipment tent, etc., etc. We would be well served by a better training structure as an industry.
 

oakwilt

Well-Known Member
#12
The forests were pretty cool, where all of us used to go. Taking th away, damming the creeks rivers and mountains? For silver and gold and cattle not Bison??
No salmon, no bears. No Wal-Mart's??
Jobs. Goods like Viagra ask you doctor about..recalled meds made in China or loas., guns to Iraq again. Korea is touchy. They can and might lob nukes to d.c. or Topeka...like the movies.
 

oakwilt

Well-Known Member
#13
But our forests burn. Just the numbers now..how many, where, near us, not too easy to manage when more seems to complicate it further..like rain where when how?
 

evo

Well-Known Member
#16
So this is what we are dealing with here.
"The Maple Fire is burning on the Olympic National Forest and State Trust Lands approximately 5 miles west of Hwy 101 and the Hood Canal, 23 miles north of Shelton, WA.

The Northwest Interagency Incident Management Team 10 (NWIMT10) led by Alan Lawson, Incident Commander, assumed command of the Maple Fire from The Western Washington Incident Management Team on August 8th at 6:00 a.am.
The focus of suppression efforts is on the east side of the fire to minimize damage to State Trust timber lands. Receipts from the management of these lands are used to support local schools and other public services. Suppression goals also include keeping the fire south of Forest Road 25 and north of Jefferson Creek to protect popular recreation sites.

A community meeting will be held on Friday evening at 7:00 p.m. at the Hamma Hamma Fire Station located at 34571 N US Highway 101. The purpose of the meeting will be to hear from fire suppression personnel and federal and state land managers about the impact of the fire on lands and resources.

Smokey conditions may continue to affect communities in the region. For information about how to deal with smokey conditions, go to: Washington Smoke Blog"

I was literally just there, all the DNR land has been logged. There are a few seed trees here and there but its literally mostly just a clear cut. To add insult to injury most of these lands have been doused in broad leaf herbicides, recently too.

Interestingly enough all the photos from the fire are coming from the east, in the clear cuts. They also might be protecting DNR land because much of it is miss managed dog hair stands, ripe for being torched.

Meanwhile letting it burn to the west, is just letting it run into the Olympic Mountains. This is the land of pro logging dribble. On a fuel stop there was a citizen complaining to a fire chief about how the State parks are responsible for the Laminated Root Rot spread because they never logged.
 

oakwilt

Well-Known Member
#18
Nationalists. Nazi's we killed for WW2. They are back. White as orange hair and brownshirts.
Change. Or something bad can happen. It already has.
 
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