SCAM 3:1 MA and Remotely Retrievable Redirect

Discussion in 'Stationary Rope Technique-Half the rope, twice the' started by FreeFallin, Oct 21, 2017.

  1. robinia

    robinia Well-Known Member

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    This is a really good one. Very cool.
    Thanks FreeFallin!
     
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  2. FreeFallin

    FreeFallin Well-Known Member

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    You bet, let me know how it runs for ya!
     
  3. Cliff_Towle

    Cliff_Towle New Member

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    Any thoughts on how to set this up remotely? I'm using a pole saw to throw a bight over a redirect, then bring that bight back to my saddle to clip into a biner. This gives the same 3:1 MA, but does involve some rope on branch friction.
     
  4. FreeFallin

    FreeFallin Well-Known Member

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    Hmmm, sounds like you are remotely setting @yoyoman s on bight (or M bight) redirect remotely. That's interesting all by itself. I hadn't considered setting the 3:1 remotely and then using it to pull yourself to it, that kind of backwards thinking is exactly what I like though. Might be worth experimenting with.
     
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  5. Acerxharlowii

    Acerxharlowii Member

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    I'm still curious how this works with rope wrench. Has anyone tried it yet or have feedback?
     
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  6. FreeFallin

    FreeFallin Well-Known Member

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    Ya, somebody send me a wrench ;)
     
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  7. robinia

    robinia Well-Known Member

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    I'd try it but it's too rainy today. Haha!
    I expect it's like many 3:1 setups with a wrench- have to collapse the wrench to descend, works fine ascending.
     
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  8. robinia

    robinia Well-Known Member

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    SCAM is my new favourite, after this one:
    IMG_2480.jpg

    But SCAM only uses a single biner. Winning!
     

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  9. FreeFallin

    FreeFallin Well-Known Member

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    That's a nice one as well!
     
  10. robinia

    robinia Well-Known Member

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    Wondering how this might help out on the multicender carabiner, for the captured bight...

    IMG_5832.PNG
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2017
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  11. rope-a-dope

    rope-a-dope Well-Known Member

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    I tried scamming this huge white oak in two different spots.
    The first one I skipped over the 3:1 because I planned to work a big section of tree and didn't want to eat up rope coming down to the low limbs. The set up is exactly the same until its time to pull the bight thru and clip it on your bridge. Instead I clipped the rope above and below my system so the tail is pulled to retrieve after taking off the gear.
    I did my work and got back to my tail and pulled. Dragging the rope tail thru the canopy and redirect made it twist up real bad so the ground had to help pull hard to get the hockles on the bight to pop thru the biner. Then the biner got jammed in the bight. I couldn't flick it because of rope path so i needed rescue (multiple climbers were in the tree already, so assitanse was immediate).
    Retrieval is working best with a direct rope path to the rediect so flicking can help shake the biner loose of the bight. 20171026_120425.jpg
    This was my second scam that day, original set up. See how the twists on the top of the biner have stretched out thru the 1st bight? I think this may cause a "sticky" retrieval or the size of the rock pirate. I had to shake this one loose for a while with some vigorous whipping
     
  12. FreeFallin

    FreeFallin Well-Known Member

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    That's pretty cool, I can think of a couple of things - for one that is a good option for either end of the MA system, for someone on a budget that is not happy with the level of friction. A roller carabiner is around $45.

    This also allows you to use a carabiner with a higher kn rating on top. The Petzl roll clip is only rated at 20kn, this is not an issue for this system since the carabiner is only responsible for 2/3 of the life support, but it would be nice to have a more robust option.

    Below though... it adds a little complexity, but not nearly as much as the other pulleys I tested at the bottom.

    Nice find!
     
  13. FreeFallin

    FreeFallin Well-Known Member

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    Wow, excellent testing and feedback, thank you!

    That is a big carabiner to pull through, was it difficult because it was against the branch, or because it just wouldn't slip through the bight at all?

    I have noticed the spreading knot occasionally, but it does not seem to affect the function or strength.

    A larger carabiner might require a looser bight around the redirect point to give more loop to slip out of.
     
  14. rope-a-dope

    rope-a-dope Well-Known Member

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    The bight was pretty tight and close to the supporting branch. I realized after, the looser tied scam is easier to pop out but still secure. Kind of like a floating anchor.
    I'm thinking about the quickie now, but the pin sticking out could cause wierdness. I think I have a mighty mouse I could try as well.
    I just love it when the cool trick works. Totally makes up for all the climber embarrassments!
     
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  15. FreeFallin

    FreeFallin Well-Known Member

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    Love it when the tech works!

    You discovered the same thing I did, I did some testing to see if the SCAM could be adjusted tighter, to allow the climber to decide how much of the load remained on the tip, or to direct some of the force down the redirect branch in a more natural way, kind of a zen/ use the force idea, but I found that if it was too tight the loop got smaller and the carabiner took some shaking to pop through.

    The quicky would be a little slower to setup, but should work. Do you know if it has the same kn rating all the way around? I think it does, in which case it would not matter if it spun to the side or something.
     
  16. deevo

    deevo Well-Known Member

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    I tried it today with the rope runner and was Pretty darn impressed ! I ordered the Petzl Rollclip Z get it from tree stuff last week, get it from @treebilly when we meet up at the expo this week. Will make it even better! Thanks for sharing and hope to use it as much as I can even though I don’t climb as much anymore
     
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  17. FreeFallin

    FreeFallin Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for testing this out deevo, I pictured it working well with the runner but had no way to test, that is great to hear. (y)
     
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  18. rope-a-dope

    rope-a-dope Well-Known Member

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    Quickie's side loaded rating is 15kN if I remember correctly. 30kN loaded in the curve and pin.
     
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  19. FreeFallin

    FreeFallin Well-Known Member

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    So at first glance that seems rated under life support if the quickie happened to side load, which is possible with a lot of unloaded shaking.

    However... the SCAM system suspends the load (in this case Rope-a-dope) on 3 legs, the carabiner (or quickie) is only supporting 2 of those legs, or 15kN of the required 22.5kn to meet the minimum life support rating (this is also how I justify using a Rollclip rated at 20kn in the video).

    So at the end of the day a quickie would technically be rated for life support in this system even if it is side loaded, but seems like a little extra work for a little less safety to me.
     
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  20. SomethingWitty

    SomethingWitty Well-Known Member

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    Just have to ask, have you played with a quickie?
    Anything that cinches is hard to make side load because of the taper on the curved piece, and the pin both rotates and has those nice corners to hold your bight in place. I think the quickie might have found another calling. I'll try your nifty new trick out with a runner and my wrench with a HC pulley.
    I think a carabinier in the middle hole of the HC may be the solution to the cluttered wrench binier. I never switched to the fancy pulleys that don't have extra holes. A pinto could use the becket, I guess.
     

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