Retrenchment and Mistletoe

Tree_Frog

Active Member
#1
I figured that I would just start a new post to address this tree (Quercus virginiana) from http://www.treebuzz.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=371357&an=0&page=0#371357

I call this the puzzle tree because as you walk around it, your plan changes at every angle. It was not until I climbed it did I feel comfortable with what to cut.

I covered the before, after, and reaction in the last post but I will post some supporting photo that better describe this tree.

One question that I would like input on is the mistletoe. We are all familiar with this plant and what it does to trees; if not just do a quick search. The live oak here in Florida does not seem to get mistletoe infections unless severely stressed. What I noticed on this particular tree is that 95% of the mistletoe was in the outer canopy.

Random? I cannot say for certain. But this was very noticeable especially when trying to locate a lateral to cut back too on this straight legged monster.

Has anyone notice Mistletoe infections that are organized to the outer canopy. Possibly at a good point of breakage if the weight were to cause failure?

Guymayor - Thank you for the input. I have considered a LPS on this tree. We decided to wait and see how the tree would respond and then see where we needed to make more structural reductions. I am hoping to get one installed after the next pruning cycle.
 

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Tree_Frog

Active Member
#7
The homeowners are extremely happy about the results. They had nothing but nice things to say.

We, Arborist, play such an understated role when it comes to the landscape. The best part of this job is the paradigm shift of customers once they break away from the lowest bidder.

Keep up the good work all. I must credit a large part of my knowledge from all of the threads on this site. If I only knew 1/10th of what guys know here. wow.
 
#8
I've been working in west central Florida for nearly 30 years and I can't recall EVER seeing mistletoe in a live oak. That looks like a relatively new community; you may want to address the probable root damage.
 

Tree_Frog

Active Member
#9
[ QUOTE ]
I've been working in west central Florida for nearly 30 years and I can't recall EVER seeing mistletoe in a live oak. That looks like a relatively new community; you may want to address the probable root damage.

[/ QUOTE ]

Great call. This construction was finished in 2004. Lucky for this tree is that the addition of top soil was still happening in this area. I am pretty confident that we are "out of the woods" on construction damage. Granted I am not happy that the driveway and street are so close but this live oak is making due.


If I had an unlimited budget I would be interested in excavating the driveway and see about placing silva cells around the roots. But due to the lean and no canopy offset, that could be a disaster.

Right now I have new leads that are developing to balance the missing sides. Once the canopy and leaf density increases for one more growing season, I will reduce the height and lean weight once again.

Mistletoe? My thoughts exactly. Granted, I don't have 30 years in this area but I know some that do. This is why I pose the question; what if some trees allow an infection to help reduce weight through breakage?

This tree was set to fail. The reaction after reduction says I not firewood just yet. IMHO.
 

guymayor

Well-Known Member
#10
" Once the canopy and leaf density increases for one more growing season, I will reduce the height and lean weight once again.

+1

"Mistletoe? what if some trees allow an infection to help reduce weight through breakage?

Well you could say the tree is thinking ahead, but that's called teleology and logically fallacious...ok not thinking but sensing, registering, https://www.coursera.org/course/plantknows

"This tree was set to fail. The reaction after reduction says I not firewood just yet. IMHO.

Not opinion but humble fact, as pics indicate.


what if some trees allow ozone damage to help reduce weight through shriveling? attached pic of some 8-10' sections taken off a white oak >80% hollow. A biannual ritual for 6 years now.

Trees are not pipes, and they don't respond by any formula that we set.
 

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Tree_Frog

Active Member
#11
"Once the canopy and leaf density increases for one more growing season, I will reduce the height and lean weight once again.

+1"

Is this an agreement or recommending another year?


"Well you could say the tree is thinking ahead, but that's called teleology and logically fallacious...ok not thinking but sensing, registering, https://www.coursera.org/course/plantknows"

Teleology looks interesting. Seems most ancient cultures and some current cultures still practice this. The book looks interesting, does the ISA sell it?

"what if some trees allow ozone damage to help reduce weight through shriveling? attached pic of some 8-10' sections taken off a white oak >80% hollow. A biannual ritual for 6 years now."

How did you finally discover that the damage was Ozone considering Oaks to be tolerant?

Thanks
 

guymayor

Well-Known Member
#12
"Once the canopy and leaf density increases for one more growing season, I will reduce the height and lean weight once again.
+1"
Is this an agreement or recommending another year?"

Agreement, though how many seasons is best may depend on the tree's response. Gilman and others have said "when the sprouting slows down" is the right time, as a sign the tree will ha restored resources.


"Well you could say the tree is thinking ahead, but that's called teleology and logically fallacious...ok not thinking but sensing, registering, https://www.coursera.org/course/plantknows"

Teleology looks interesting. Seems most ancient cultures and some current cultures still practice this.

Well the UW faculty was not one of those current cultures; I couldn't pursue a masters thesis there due to that issue...o and the partying may have been a factor...

"The book looks interesting, does the ISA sell it?"

Nope--maybe someone should propose they carry it! I'll knwo more in a few weeks.

"what if some trees allow ozone damage to help reduce weight through shriveling? attached pic of some 8-10' sections taken off a white oak >80% hollow. A biannual ritual for 6 years now."

How did you finally discover that the damage was Ozone considering Oaks to be tolerant?"

I just looked at the pictures and read the text pg. 483 in Sinclair, who lists white oak as intermediate/sensitive to ozone, but tolerant of SO2. And other old white oaks have shown it, and it seeems to make sense. Are water and maybe nutrient issues also in play, probably so.

Could it be called natural retrenchment, probably so. What mattered to me was, like the mistletoe in your live oak, it seemed to be the tree's way of saying "Cut here!"
 

Tree_Frog

Active Member
#13
Thank you for all of the information Guy.

Do you have any other specific examples of trees in stress that fit this teleology concept on a large scale?
 

guymayor

Well-Known Member
#14
Wikipedia: A teleology is any philosophical account that holds that final causes exist in nature, meaning that, analogous to purposes found in human actions, nature inherently tends toward definite ends.
Teleology was explored by Plato and Aristotle, by Saint Anselm during the 11th century AD, and later by Carl Jung and Immanuel Kant in his Critique of Judgment. It was fundamental to the speculative philosophy of Hegel.
A thing, process, or action is teleological when it is for the sake of an end, i.e., a telos or final cause.

Teleology works in philosophy, but not biology--I wouldn't say that plants act to a purpose, because that would mean they think, and that would be hard to prove.

Got other retrenching trees but putting them together for TCI Expo so
 

Tree_Frog

Active Member
#16
We removed two large lower laterals extending over the home. We reduced a number of laterals by about 10' or more that were creating an off balance canopy toward the house and away from the driveway. New scaffold branches and laterals were developing over the driveway and those were thinned / reduced / of left alone to take dominance and continue building the missing canopy on that side.

The top will be monitored and addressed in about 2-3 years if required.
IMG_1574.jpg IMG_1578.jpg IMG_1580.jpg
 

Tree_Frog

Active Member
#17
Another round of retrenchment pruning took place this past February. I still need the to take the photos after the spring flush. We took approximately 25,000lbs out of the canopy.

CC7FEFA3-060E-48E9-A2F9-86854D6FBA81.jpeg 0094C009-8E79-475C-BC34-CB3E55F91FAD.jpeg D5ACE2E4-BE55-49A6-8C0E-840216BA65B9.jpeg 31D25F26-6FE4-47E4-922F-EC0846641F48.jpeg C976C497-02CC-466A-9DE3-F9FD425ED366.jpeg F5A8FC87-966D-4954-B60A-03DAD634454C.jpeg D29C5B3B-1816-444F-9D29-F1A50AE9EA16.jpeg C28F9239-67E9-42B3-ADDE-36464C1074E0.jpeg FBBD7046-683A-46B2-A94F-04B354770F3E.jpeg
 

guymayor

Well-Known Member
#18
Good Gracious! What was the objective? Huge wounds facing the house; live oak is tough but are you sure they will close?

And what size were the cuts in the crown? Based on your previous work, this is not what was expected.

Any mistletoe coming back? If so, painting the exposed haustoria black after pruning can suppress it.

25k pounds; looks like a 50% reduction from here. Will excessive sprouting force a shorter pruning cycle?
 

guymayor

Well-Known Member
#19
Even if the trunk was 90% hollow, it's hard to see a structural rationale for that. Growth habit is pretty much gone, for some time.
 

JD3000

Well-Known Member
#20
Yeah big cuts in some spots.

Way to follow up on old threads. More of us should have these over the years threads. Pretty cool
 
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