Redirecting Rope to Limb Walk

Woodwork

Active Member
Hey, guys,

New guy here to tree climbing. I've done the doubled-rope method a few times and seen some videos where guys were using (I guess) SRT and redirecting rope all over tree so that they could walk out on limbs that wouldn't otherwise support their weight. I would like to learn how to do this safely.

I suspect that when you redirect your top rope out away from vertical/plumb, the load on your TIP can increase a lot, depending on the angle the load is applied to the TIP. Is this a big concern, or is the TIP usually so strong that even doubling or tripling the load won't matter?

I guess what I'm looking for is a good book or website or whatever to read up on all this and begin to understand it. Some of the things I've seen guys do on videos I wouldn't have thought possible...

Can anyone recommend any books or websites that go into this really well? Thank you for any help.

Jeff
 

Jan_

Active Member
There are a lot of methods to redirect your srt rope:
- a simple sling with carabiner
- SCAM removable redirect
- redirect removable with the tail of the rope
- Simply dropping through a crotch
- and a lot more, just google "tree climbing redirect"

All of them dont increase the load on your TIP, they just deflect it in different directions. Only your Redirect itself might be subject to increased load ( edit: at rope angles <90° (This was wrong, look at post below!)), depending on the angle between your TIP and redirect. This means that you dont really need to worry about your TIP, but more about your redirect.
 
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RyTheTreeGuy

Well-Known Member
Re-directs and undertanding how and when to use them are a vital part of tree climbing. You have started off in a great place for learning and the knowledge that graces these pages is truly world class. For my money the best resource you can buy is something called the Shultz effect. More then 5 hours of climbing tips and tricks...mostly SRT but crazy good value for $40....as mentioned earlier with most of the angles (vector forces) your re directs will be at, you will actually be putting less forces on your TIP. Think load sharing...the more re-directs the more the load becomes distributed throughout the tree. This approach becomes very valuable in any hazard tree's or for small diameter limbs towards the tips of a sprawling canopy...try to remember the strength of the wood fiber comes from tension so plan your routes for that as well. Re-directs are also a safety measure. A well placed re-direct will save you from a nasty swing back to the stem as well as give you a good rope angle to allow you to keep your weight back in your saddle to help you balance to the sides of the limb as oppos to directly over the top...Pre climb planning should not be over looked. Make a plan on the ground, ascend the tree to your TIP, then re-evaluate your plan. If it works then get cracking, but if you see a better option for your intended goal then adjust. Stay low and slow to start and have fun
 

Talon Tree Service

Active Member
Good advice in the past two comments. Schultz effect is definitely worth the 40 bucks!
Only you can judge how strong your TIP is. Some redirects can double the load on your TIP, there is an easy trick for using your lanyard to make a 2 to 1 and test your TIP while on the ground. Always be confident, if you’re not comfortable with your TIP, change something. Falling isn’t a thought I like to entertain
 

Jan_

Active Member
Yes, a strong TIP is the basis for easy climbing. The confidence you gain, with a strong TIP will make climbing a lot easier, faster and you will be able to 100% focus on your gear when you're not doubting your safety.
A help to determine the required size if TIP: the limb you are tying to should always be bigger in diameter than your biceps, provided it's healthy strong wood (learn to identify tree disease!). If you take big swings etc. you should go above that.
 

Woodwork

Active Member
Thank you for your help, guys. No time to read/reply now, as I am in middle of roof job (see my "Roof Job" thread in main forum) and YESTERDAY they said no rain until Sun night, but this morning they're saying rain TONIGHT TOO so I am in a full balls-to-wall dash to get underlayment down on my stripped roof before house gets flooded. Hope to get back to this thread tonight. Wish me luck!
 

Jan_

Active Member
Ok, this physics problem about the load of the redirect wouldn't get out of my head and I thought about it again: I think the load on the redirect will be larger than that on the TIP at a rope angle smaller than 120° total.
I came up with this formula to calculate the vector force on the redirect:
sin(90-Rope angle/2)*Mass of climber*2=Force on redirect
Note: this is done with my own physics knowledge, lines up with my test results, but might still not be correct and needs to be proven/checked ( @*useless info* ?)
edit:This proves my formula in a way and is worth a read
 
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southsoundtree

Well-Known Member
Remember that limb-walking can break your supporting limb, if skinny (usually 'limbs' are skinny, in my book). You could swing back into the stub if the limb is straight in line with our swing back toward your TIP, stabbing you. Stubbs on the trunk are best cleaned before hand. A groundworker holding the tail of the SRT system can arrest a swing-back toward the trunk (or otherwise anchor the tail. A Hitchhiker can be used with heavy tail-weight as it doesn't bend the rope.
 

southsoundtree

Well-Known Member
PS. Go climb a tree, and lower into the tippy tops of another tree, and see how much weight/ force a small, healthy top can take. Then, always choose stronger, bigger TIPs, and be aware of loading forces.

I stood at the top of a western red cedar this way. The top. It was surely bending to the side at 1.5-2" diameter at my feet.
 

DSMc

Well-Known Member
That link is a good one,Vtio has published some nice stuff.

One of the greatest things about SRS is not only the ease of setting redirects, but setting them without the need for the rope to move. A redirect in SRS climbing can be tied off. Having no movement can stabilize things a lot.
 

*useless info*

Well-Known Member
@Jan_
Will have to go over link later, thanx!

Stepson became engineer(and Master's last yr.!), but i'm no school boy; just (well researched) treeman slop of made up imagery to observations and research etc. All the alpha,theta,sigma symbols seen in this stuff kinda look like Greek to me..
.
The 120degree spread line equal to each side as 60 degree angle deflection and equal force on each side of redirect pulley system (ignoring frictions).
will give co(lumn)sine= .5 and sin(e)=.86 that i use as percentages of support (column) to purpose against load and sin of wrenching sideways forces against respectively of support force (or length)Thus, the 2 legs of line will place 2xLine tension x .5cosine = just original line tension on the support YES same as that angle spread would hobble a 2/1 system to only give 1x return! Closing angle more will increase this beyond line tension YES as is closer to a 2/1 of closed angle/ Zer0 deflection to get all the 2x potential untaxed by any side force here or in 2/1.
.
BUT, for a 60 degree line (1 side leg of 120 spread), to place 100# upward support on climber increases line tension :
100#needed ÷ .5co(lumn)sine of efficiency of 60 degrees = 200# line tension.
.
So that 200# line tension x .5co(lumn)sine = 100# upward support from 200# line tension cash
BUT,
that means 200#line tension x .86sin(e) = 172# pulling at right angle on climber to get the 100# upward support!!
(Short cut need 100# @60 degrees side force =100# support column needed x 1.72(tangent of 60)= 172# sideforce.)
Must always look to sides both ways when crossing any line of force on this street and at what could be coming and it's costs to not get run over!!
Similarly if had 200in. 2x4 leaned @ 60 degrees,
Rising support column reaches 200 of available x .5 co(lumn)sine would give 100in. rise,
But throw to side 200 available x .86 sin = 172in. in doing so. Same Math to see if length quantity is enough as for then to see if once reached enough force etc.
.
For me,
Co(lumn)sine angle directly opposing load direction unique single dimension column of support.
Sin(e) is any thing to the other 2 dimensions, side forces not on the benchmark reference column of loading. As co(lumn)sine is the support, sin(e) is it's non. Sine is tax extruded at that angle to give support, thus from the 'wallet' of available line tension at the moment, some of the money goes to sin(e), so less goes to actual support of co(lumn)sine to work done. Need more support, need more line tension(cash) and/or less tax to 'net' the increased support.
.
i also say cosine is to your cos(cause), vs. the sin against. Some politicians are always letting their sin over run their cos!
.
Temple roof stood on pure vertical support co(lumn)sines, Samson came across on sin angle; needing equal opposite of other column to do so. Cuz 90degree from support is Zer0 support on that cross axis!
.
Glass, granite, marble slabs is a fave model of carrying by numbers to protect the minimal axis of least support from overloading; typically carried vertical +10.
>>If pure vertical could throw side force either way to more impact, definitive lean gives 1 angle predictable lean and then support backing.
>>typically at ~10 degrees; giving cos: .984 sin:.173
translates to 98.4% of weight borne down column properly;
length handles forward/backward forces thru the longest column.
Minimal side forces are of weight x 17.3% already @ 10 degrees!!!
note how cosine creeps down slow to start, as sine throws to side HARD!
(reverse effect after 60 degrees, cosine falls fast, sine creeps)
So minimal/thinnest axis gets minimal force, and then supported.
Greater forces, are carried properly on the more major axises of length and height, rather than thinness. Some tile shipped pure vertical packages etc.
Thus you don't lay weighty slabs down or in direction of travel usually, to protect the minimal support axis of thinness, thereby weakness.
This is how these delicates are ushered thru the forces; as an extreme comparative force model for what we face.
.
These principles are so all around us, hard to see and sift. Even realistic game shadow gradient fades are on cosine/sine scales or look fakey, our protecting animal eye knows when is not what it sees all the time!
Above are some of the imageries, reminders, models, mnemonics have carried and digested to keep self inline and weigh and measure what i see/feel.

Hope this helps!
Spaghetti theory : Gotta keep throwing at self until sticks!
This stuff is pure gold once get it, so many applications!
 
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Acerxharlowii

Active Member
@Jan_
Will have to go over link later, thanx!

Stepson became engineer(and Master's last yr.!), but i'm no school boy; just (well researched) treeman slop of made up imagery to observations and research etc. All the alpha,theta,sigma symbols seen in this stuff kinda look like Greek to me..
.
The 120degree spread line equal to each side as 60 degree angle deflection and equal force on each side of redirect pulley system (ignoring frictions).
will give co(lumn)sine= .5 and sin(e)=.86 that i use as percentages of support (column) to purpose against load and sin of wrenching sideways forces against respectively of support force (or length)Thus, the 2 legs of line will place 2xLine tension x .5cosine = just original line tension on the support YES same as that angle spread would hobble a 2/1 system to only give 1x return! Closing angle more will increase this beyond line tension YES as is closer to a 2/1 of closed angle/ Zer0 deflection to get all the 2x potential untaxed by any side force here or in 2/1.
.
BUT, for a 60 degree line (1 side leg of 120 spread), to place 100# upward support on climber increases line tension :
100#needed ÷ .5co(lumn)sine of efficiency of 60 degrees = 200# line tension.
.
So that 200# line tension x .5co(lumn)sine = 100# upward support from 200# line tension cash
BUT,
that means 200#line tension x .86sin(e) = 172# pulling at right angle on climber to get the 100# upward support!!
(Short cut need 100# @60 degrees side force =100# support column needed x 1.72(tangent of 60)= 172# sideforce.)
Must always look to sides both ways when crossing any line of force on this street and at what could be coming and it's costs to not get run over!!
Similarly if had 200in. 2x4 leaned @ 60 degrees,
Rising support column reaches 200 of available x .5 co(lumn)sine would give 100in. rise,
But throw to side 200 available x .86 sin = 172in. in doing so. Same Math to see if length quantity is enough as for then to see if once reached enough force etc.
.
For me,
Co(lumn)sine angle directly opposing load direction unique single dimension column of support.
Sin(e) is any thing to the other 2 dimensions, side forces not on the benchmark reference column of loading. As co(lumn)sine is the support, sin(e) is it's non. Sine is tax extruded at that angle to give support, thus from the 'wallet' of available line tension at the moment, some of the money goes to sin(e), so less goes to actual support of co(lumn)sine to work done. Need more support, need more line tension(cash) and/or less tax to 'net' the increased support.
.
i also say cosine is to your cos(cause), vs. the sin against. Some politicians are always letting their sin over run their cos!
.
Temple roof stood on pure vertical support co(lumn)sines, Samson came across on sin angle; needing equal opposite of other column to do so. Cuz 90degree from support is Zer0 support on that cross axis!
.
Glass, granite, marble slabs is a fave model of carrying by numbers to protect the minimal axis of least support from overloading; typically carried vertical +10.
>>If pure vertical could throw side force either way to more impact, definitive lean gives 1 angle predictable lean and then support backing.
>>typically at ~10 degrees; giving cos: .984 sin:.173
translates to 98.4% of weight borne down column properly;
length handles forward/backward forces thru the longest column.
Minimal side forces are of weight x 17.3% already @ 10 degrees!!!
note how cosine creeps down slow to start, as sine throws to side HARD!
(reverse effect after 60 degrees, cosine falls fast, sine creeps)
So minimal/thinnest axis gets minimal force, and then supported.
Greater forces, are carried properly on the more major axises of length and height, rather than thinness. Some tile shipped pure vertical packages etc.
Thus you don't lay weighty slabs down or in direction of travel usually, to protect the minimal support axis of thinness, thereby weakness.
This is how these delicates are ushered thru the forces; as an extreme comparative force model for what we face.
.
These principles are so all around us, hard to see and sift. Even realistic game shadow gradient fades are on cosine/sine scales or look fakey, our protecting animal eye knows when is not what it sees all the time!
Above are some of the imageries, reminders, models, mnemonics have carried and digested to keep self inline and weigh and measure what i see/feel.

Hope this helps!
Spaghetti theory : Gotta keep throwing at self until sticks!
This stuff is pure gold once get it, so many applications!
Now in English
 

*useless info*

Well-Known Member
Trying to bring numbers to life and show
>>there is enough upward support force at angle
>>but only if loads more force pulling sideways than for the upward support.
.
Would want to be leaning way some as ballast to side pull off balance, and remainder of force is upward column support for rest of weight at stand still.
.
Then some examples that show same math in all physical things, just more expressed in tree size forces. And more readable as strains on self! Support column vs. side forces not of the column.
 

Woodwork

Active Member
I've decided to buy The Schultz Effect videos ... thank you for the recommendation.
I've been watching these videos. Really well done, and I'm learning a lot.

I've accumulated most of the other stuff over the years (saddle, lanyard, spurs, ropes, hitch cord, biners, pulleys, etc etc) and have been having fun working in trees (and on the roof) here in the yard, and Sherrill had another 15% off sale, so I sprung for a Unicender, one of Mr. Mumford's drum heat sinks for it, and a new hank of Yale Blaze 11 mm...so I am psyched. First job after I get acquainted with it all is to trim some spindly limbs off a 30" DBH black walnut in the yard...I'm sure I'll be bugging the bejesus out of you all for advice as I go along.

(I had been holding off on the Unicender, hoping they might make one out of stainless steel, but now I think I understand why that will probably never happen ... if it wears down, I'll probably try adding some 4043 aluminum filler to the worn parts with my TIG welder and see how that works. As a weekend warrior, I'll probably never wear it out, anyway.)

Happy Independence Day, everyone.
 

Woodwork

Active Member
Thanks, Rypie, those were both interesting videos. The second one was kind of surprising.

Side question: When you folks use webbing slings and carabiners to redirect your climbing rope in the canopy of a tree, what type of carabiners do you use for those redirects? Spring gate? Screw gate? Double locking?
 
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