Luke Glines

yoyoman

Well-Known Member
#41
As everyone knows, dynamic loads can be much, much greater than 2X (i.e. 2 people loading).
Obviously, I don't know the answer to ultimate saftey.
Agree and understand.
It is interesting how most of these failures seem to occur during a mostly static event, ascent vs swings and such. Perhaps that is because the ascent is a test prior to the dynamic events. I'm glad we are taking about it.
 

GregManning

Super Moderator
Staff member
#42
Actually, I think the loads during a swing can be relatively low, as long as it is initially loaded smoothly.
An ascent with "up-down-jerky" motion could be much higher dynamic loads.

Just intuitive; no data on my part.
 

yoyoman

Well-Known Member
#43
Actually, I think the loads during a swing can be relatively low, as long as it is initially loaded smoothly.
An ascent with "up-down-jerky" motion could be much higher dynamic loads.

Just intuitive; no data on my part.
For sure with some hip thrusting and as I pointed out in my video with a RAD 3:1. My rope walking showed an additional 15%.
 

GregManning

Super Moderator
Staff member
#44
In 2008, at the ITCC in St Louis, TreeMagineers did extensive testing on loads at the Work Climb.

A load cell was installed at the TIP.
Each climber was weighed.
The ropes & hitches were recorded.
Each climb was videotaped.

The results are available, for those that can understand them; I don't have a link.
 

yoyoman

Well-Known Member
#46
In 2008, at the ITCC in St Louis, TreeMagineers did extensive testing on loads at the Work Climb.

A load cell was installed at the TIP.
Each climber was weighed.
The ropes & hitches were recorded.
Each climb was videotaped.

The results are available, for those that can understand them; I don't have a link.
I think I know the video you are referring to. What I took away from that more than anything was how much friction can come into play. Although fiction is extremely important, I think it can be very difficult to estimate in the tree and know when it is working for us.
 

GregManning

Super Moderator
Staff member
#48
I think I know the video you are referring to. What I took away from that more than anything was how much friction can come into play. Although fiction is extremely important, I think it can be very difficult to estimate in the tree and know when it is working for us.
I think there is actually data. Not just video.
 

yoyoman

Well-Known Member
#50
I think there is actually data. Not just video.
Greg, drawing on your experience which is much more vast than mine, when would you say most breakouts occur?
I do intend to do more testing and exploring of this subject and your guidance woodpoint (This miss spelling was dictation, but I like it) the right direction.
 

GregManning

Super Moderator
Staff member
#51
Greg, drawing on your experience which is much more vast than mine, when would you say most breakouts occur? I do intend to do more testing and exploring of this subject and your guidance woodpoint (This miss spelling was dictation, but I like it) the right direction.
Opppps ........................
Oh contrair' ..................
Your experience & knowledge is much greater than mine.

I am just a very interested observer, volunteer, recreational climber.

I am a retired chemical engineer, very interested in trees & TCC's.
(volunteered for ~ 65 TCC's)

Look forward to meeting you at Jambo 3 !
 
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Riggs

Well-Known Member
#52
give me a "break " way to derail a thread fellas . Hats off . When your done with all your back patting , can I ask a question . Leave all the science behind . Thanks . First off I am happy to hear Luke is Okay . Stand up response from him . Sounds like a good man . Getting back to the accident before , the original thread . Luke said he would have re- thrown if at work . Competition , points etc. made him want to keep that" tip" . My understanding is that the Main TIP is under discretion of Head Judge and Head Tech , for obvious reasons . So my question is , Did the Head tech and or Head Judge approve of TIP ? Don't come back at me with data , or I'll really derail this thread .
 

GregManning

Super Moderator
Staff member
#53
Luke is taking responsibility for his choice of TIP.....because that is the kind of man he is. However, there is more to the story. While setting up the tree Mark James and I recognized the crotch that failed as the likely target for the competitors..... most centrally located high TIP. He and I both looked at it from buckets, saw no visible defects and thought it was beefy enough despite the dogleg down to the branch attachment. We said " it should be fine if they load test it." Therefore he and I were both primed to approve it as soon as it was double loaded by Luke and a judge prior to ascent and it held. One of the other judges quietly asked "did you see how much that torqued?" I looked up at it as Luke began his ascent, saw the way the limb was twisting, said "eww.....you're right"...and the limb failed. Lots of lessons for us all. Hopefully there will never be another situation like this, But I think that those of us setting things up are going to be a lot more leery of questionable TIPs, pretesting and restricting some. Comps put pressure on everyone...hurrying to set up, judges not wanting to inhibit competitors, competitors pushing for the best TIP on the first shot. The irony is that Luke it "THE" target. I am much heavier that Luke and I would have chosen that TIP, Would I have let it stand completely isolated as it was? Would I have stopped when I saw the way it torqued? I will NOW but I know I have gone up on a couple like that before. Be careful everyone!
Yep on the derail.
Read above.
 

Riggs

Well-Known Member
#55
"He and I both looked at it from buckets, saw no visible defects and thought it was beefy enough despite the dogleg down to the branch attachment."
window shopping

"I think that those of us setting things up are going to be a lot more leery of questionable TIPs"
I would hope so .

"Would I have stopped when I saw the way it torqued? I will NOW"
too late .
 

bonner1040

Well-Known Member
#56
"He and I both looked at it from buckets, saw no visible defects and thought it was beefy enough despite the dogleg down to the branch attachment."
window shopping

"I think that those of us setting things up are going to be a lot more leery of questionable TIPs"
I would hope so .

"Would I have stopped when I saw the way it torqued? I will NOW"
too late .
Come on Glenn, People are doing their best here. No one was sitting there snickering going 'watch this...'. It is easy to second guess the call and the play but try to put yourself in the shoes of these guys.

Comps are belabored with safety concerns, no one knows whats going to happen in every given scenario and people are always trying to err on the side of caution. Events like this only increase the scrutiny we put on things and we don't need people just trying to make others feel bad for what was done in good faith.
 
#57
Agreed, but they establish point values for the height of the selected crotch prior to the event which pushes competitors to go for the highest parts of the tree and the sketchiest psp's.
Yes this is exactly where I think the problem is at. You always want the highest crotch for great rope angles in competition. In a work situation we will most likely settle for something a little more solid and then examine closer for a higher tie in as we work the tops of a tree. Having a clear idea of what's been previously examined in a competition tree to be solid and reliable will reduce the chances of failure. And having an assortment of say 5 or more will still give climbers choices of how they wish to climb the tree.
 

treehumper

Well-Known Member
#58
Luke, glad to here you're on the mend! What was the extent of your injury? Recovery time? Do you have some sort of short term disability insurance to cover you while you're out?
As for the incident and teachable moment…

I thought that the master's climb was a simulated work climb. Why stop the clock? Redefine the initial procedure. It's been done before so why not now? You've got the pre climb inspection, add to that a TIP test, that is scored and weighted heavily. If we want the competition to promote the field and demonstrate the best of the best doing things the right way then let's learn from this and incorporate what we want to see being done at all points.
 
#59
Luke, glad to here you're on the mend! What was the extent of your injury? Recovery time? Do you have some sort of short term disability insurance to cover you while you're out?
As for the incident and teachable moment…

I thought that the master's climb was a simulated work climb. Why stop the clock? Redefine the initial procedure. It's been done before so why not now? You've got the pre climb inspection, add to that a TIP test, that is scored and weighted heavily. If we want the competition to promote the field and demonstrate the best of the best doing things the right way then let's learn from this and incorporate what we want to see being done at all points.
 
#60
Recovering along at a decent rate so can't complain to much-thanks for asking treehumper. Just general leg pain and walking around well and got into a small tree today.
As for the competition question, yes all aspects of the comps are meant to simulate work situations. But do any of them really simulate it exactly? Not really. Take the work climb event for instance. Do we ever start at the top of a tree and see how fast we can move to 4 stations and ring bells? How many times is a pole saw pre hung in a tree waiting for us? How many times are we in a hurry to get out and do a limb walk with a less than ideal rope angle-wouldn't we usually take the time to install a redirect?
And that's just a few items in the work climb. We could do many more with the AR event.
I write this not to diminish the skills that are required in these events, but to point out that there isn't necessarily a close connection to what we do at work.
As for the masters event. Do we really want to see a bunch of load tests on high questionable tie ins that may be compromised by the test itself. Or, have large branches broken out of beautiful trees just for the sake of demonstrating testing of tie in points? I'm really hoping that most of us don't push these limits very often on our tie in points at work. The comps are set up to score based on rope angles which always means the higher the better. I'm certain that Competitive climbers are always going to go for the highest allowable tie in. I'm not sure what the best answer is to eliminate the potential for failure aside from a more thorough inspection than can be done from a pre climb inspection by a climber in a timed competitive environment.
 
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