legality of 3 nuckle climing knot

thattreeguy

New Member
is it legal for climbers in ca to use the 3 nuckle (suicide) knot as a climbing hitch....?
i know it's a bad idea but i can only enforce the law here. not unless its breaking the law can i make immediate changes.
 

Tom Dunlap

Here from the beginning
Administrator
What law is there governing climbing hitches?

Can you cite chapter and verse? Certainly not anything in ANSI Z133 that specifies things that minutely.
 

thattreeguy

New Member
mb a taught line is 2 under 2 over,
my guys are on 2 down and 1 up no figure 8 stopper.
just want to know if there is any set policies or rules regarding its use,
i have 2 active osha investigations right now and want to know if its an approved knot
the investigations are for a = fatality and fall seperate incidents 1 bucket 1 climber
i just want it squared away and in the specs of osha
 

NickfromWI

Well-Known Member
I wonder if an inspector would even notice something as subtle as that.

You're the boss. If you're worried about it, why not just tell them- hey boys, sorry, but you gotta start putting a stopper knot on there and must have a minimum of 4 wraps.

Just get them climbing on a closed ended system (distel hitch?) and bypass the whole stopper knot thing.

How about the Blakes?

Maybe I can come up there and show them how to tie the knots!

love
nick
 

Colin

Administrator
Administrator
[ QUOTE ]
mb a taught line is 2 under 2 over,

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for telling me what a tautline hitch is!
 

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thattreeguy

New Member
no problem mb...maybe you can show my crew ...since you know what it is...
nick do you speak spanish..fluently?...the boss wont pay for the new systems for 35 to 40 climbers....all old school...its cheap that way
id like to climb with ya though...got a good euc citriodora in the park accross from my house in buena park
 

NickfromWI

Well-Known Member
What company do you work for?

Won't pay for it? You think every one here us using these advanced systems for the fun of it? Old school is old school for a reason.

I say I'm 85% fluent. Most american's say I'm 100% fluent, just because I can hold a conversation, but there are things I don't know how to say...but I can always work my way around them!

love
nick
 

Mike_Dirksen

Active Member
[ QUOTE ]
i have 2 active osha investigations right now and want to know if its an approved knot
the investigations are for a = fatality and fall seperate incidents 1 bucket 1 climber
i just want it squared away and in the specs of osha

[/ QUOTE ]

There’s nothing that I’m aware of, in the ANSI Z standards that directly identifies a “proper” climbing hitch. With this said, there is an ISA standard for proper climbing hitches for those who wish to become a Certified Tree Worker, Climber Specialist. If a person cannot tie a proper taught-line hitch, or Blake’s Hitch, that person is not allowed to proceed through the exam.

Given your situation with the OSHA investigations, regarding a fatality and a fall on your crew, this might be a good time to push for some training courses for your guys. Not only will this ensure that you’re doing the right thing for your employees, it will also show OSHA that you’re doing the right thing for your employees. The last thing we need are more fatalities in our industry.

Mike
 

TheTreeSpyder

Well-Known Member
First off; i definitely think that any 'open' climbing hitch should be 'closed' at least with a stopper knot. Especially anything based on a Clove type formation. Any Clove type lacing not only pulls on the Standing Part to try to 'walk' knot; but also pushes the trapping 'Z' bar back towards release as the Standing Part pull direction also pulls/ drags the Bitters (by 'tracking' into it) towards release. These 3 actions work together(in my imagery), to raise the chance of spilling the hitch and it's precious cargo!

Naming conventions can blur some; but generally '2 down/ 1 up' is more defined as Midshipman's or Rolling Hitch(sometimes Rolling Hitch has a reverse like Cow); and has been used on ships for milleniums for similar purposes by boatswain / bosun (?) on masts.

Mechanically, i think that most of the work is done by the '2 down' part (a roundturn) and the '1 or 2 up' here is more or less a hitch on top as a keeper to maintain the '2 down' in place/ less likely to roll out/ walk off the job.

Over the years i've noticed many pictures here, elsewheres etc. of different closed friction hitches that are generally defined as 4 uniterupted turns (a coil) initially; that many seem to reduce to 3 uniterrupted turns (a double round turn) for freer movement once more familiar with hitching's charachteristics. Kinda L-earning with the full 4, and going to 3; so have always tried to give pix of 4.

i think that we should keep p-reaching for 4 in a Tautline especially; especially without stopper, and it's need for a stopper. If for no other t-reason than anything else has a different definition/ name. Also, working all around a tree is different than up and down a mast to crow's nest etc. If someone has been doing it as long as Butch(he's got me listed as 65, and i know he is older than me!) wants to play it like that; perhaps then the lines become blurred some; but definitely should have a stopper, especially with only 1 up. But i'd also hope that Butch would teach it as 2 over 2; in it's classic form. And really any change in lines or split tails should be approached conservatively; with the 2/2 for best safety etc.

IMLHO /forum/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

edit: i've all ways been working on how to best draw and eventually animate knots. Recently did this Knots to Know 101 (that i converted to a .pdf for web) for a presentation for our local Girl Scouts. i think the art of knotting should be preserved; and those that depend their lives on them perhaps most passionate teachers!
 

Jim

New Member
Thank God that there hasn't been more unfortunate accidents. When I was using the Tautline, it seemed to always 'walk' to my stopper knot.
 

pantheraba

Member
I was taught the tautline as 2 under / 1 over...without a stopper knot. That was manila on manila....thinking back, though, I was never really given a name for it...I always called it a "tree knot". Whenever I looked it up in a knot book I came up with Spidey's names, rolling and magnus hitch.

Whenever I used a rope and the 2/1 didn't hold as well as I wanted, I would use a 2 over 2.

The fellow that taught me was a navy guy (quartermaster? whoever it was that knew knots and rigging on a ship...he tied real monkey's fists, etc.) but a stopper knot was never mentioned. I learned about it thru these sites and Jepson when I switched to a Blake's.

Now I use a Knut, WAY better than the taut or Blake's.
 

Mahk_Adams

Active Member
Ashley never uses the term 'tautline' (well, 'tautline' is not in the index and I don't remember running across that term in the text), but variously, and confusingly, uses Magnus, Magner's, Rolling Hitch, Adjustable Hitch, and Midshipman's Hitch.

Most of the time, however, Asley calls the 2 under 1 over a Rolling Hitch and says that it had the older name of Magnus or Magner's hitch. He shows what we would call the 'two over two' tautline, and the 'two over two' Prusik as "...tree surgeon's variations of the Magnus Hitch..."


When I first started climbing I was shown the 2/2 version and was immediately told that that binds too much and that I should use the 2/1 version and just snug it up tightly. The 2/1 was the only climbing knot that I used for the first 6 or 8 years.

I agree that, whichever version is used, it MUST be tied with a stopper knot.
 

pantheraba

Member
Thanks for your input, Mahk.

At first read, it was looking like I might be a lone ranger thinking the 2/1 was OK. It never gave me any trouble, either. The 2/2 version often bound too much for me and I almost always used the 2/1.

I agree with you...thattreeguy's main concern needs to be the (nonexistent) stopper knot.
 

TheTreeSpyder

Well-Known Member
i guess that is fair. And even though a Blake's is kinda like a trusty Anchor Hitch with another RoundTurn (that Bitters/ tail doesn't reeve/ trap under); so should not walk off the job; it should still get a stopper for completeness IMLHO.
 

thattreeguy

New Member
OK
so the mangus wins if tied with a stopper knot.
and the 2 half hitches that tie to their clip will be addressed when everyone gets new rope.
i feel like a hipocrite because i grew up on these knots, but have been shown better ways and want to pass it on
thank you all for your input. i appreciate all the serious comments ...driving for change is difficult and i like the encouragement...although how can you not smile at ol mb's cracks?
i forgot that it was called the magnus knot total flash back..
 
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