For the record.......

Nathan

New Member
[ QUOTE ]
Oakwilt, If you have some problem with me, PM me direct. This is not the place for name calling and/of acting like a 12 year old.

I'll give you my number at the office, if you would like to call me on this feel free. 800-822-3537 x242. I look forward to hearing from you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow! Look who having a hissy fit now /forum/images/graemlins/hahaha.gif


BTW, I have enjoyed these convesations about wilt and treatment options out there. I hope to hear more in the future. The more tools in the chest, the better.
 

Chum

New Member
Without editorial input from the New Jersey "TreeDoc", I was wondering now that one calender year has passed and some efficacy data might be available on the Alamo/QualiPro test injections?

Just wondering.
 

Chum

New Member
Fanfare a year ago seems to have simmered-down a step or two.

I was hammered in public for data because our test sites survived and we suggested a nutritional problem was the underlying cause of susceptabilty for oak wilt.

Furthermore we proved that the endohyphea was a mutational response from intitial propoconazole treatments, making this disease violently virulent.

Now a replacement treatment that is no different than the first misguided chemical attempt to suppress wilt is marketed with nothing more than verbal suggestions that it's working better than the Ciba-Geigy development.

Marketers in America should become more responsible. They appear to be little different than real estate speculators or side show barkers.
 

Chum

New Member
Mating strains of wilt, provided by Peterson Plant Disease Lab (TAMU) were indexed here, two distinct differences were noted in samples from 1/87 compared to 5/91.

Endohyphea were characteristics noted in later samples, similar to isolates grown here after 1990. Elongated vestules were a new feature that allowed movement beyond tylosis, thru perforations in vascular cells and beyond phytoplasm blockage that to a large degree effectively supressed earier movement and progression of this disease within the tree.

Curious about this new ability we grew isolates from earlier mycelia samples and innoculated health oaks that were one test: treated, control: non-treated, and a group that were supplemented with zinc, copper, phosphorous and a bacterial antagonist. All oaks were confirmed infected. The propaconazole exposed innoculant was determined to display this growth abnormality that we concluded was a result to sterol-inhibiting agents, as no other test group had these "fingers". Repeated samples all resulted in similar mutations. Mechanisms for this mutation we couldn't answer, but this evidence was blatant.

So when I mention susceptability to disease I stress the nutritional testing we did prior to innoculation of treatments and/or disease. All tissues indicated severe deficiencies of Zn, Co, Fe, and sugars in comparison to tissues we procured and used as base-line indexes from similar species but distanced fifty-plus miles from known infection centers. Predisposition from environmental factors was always my hypothesis for live oak wilt events that preclude epidemic. Compound that by mutational differences in virulence from abilities to move around the tree's physiological response to vascular parasitic inhibitors, and we have a problem Houston. Fungistats such as ALAMO (or whatever a new name might be marketed as) are only sexual reproductive inhibitors, weakening over time and potentially increasing this disease's ability to move around and thru any attempts to isolate it and manage it with enzyme or hormonal responses that the tree used to respond with quite effectively. Wilt's always been here...it's never been the killer it is now, even if our forest compositions have changed somewhat.
 

Chum

New Member
But that's just a compilation of evidence we used in Texas, on our afflicted species sans red oaks (Q texana). I was one of the early testers, as a practicing arborist, back when A&M (the principal land grant mandate researcher) was still adamant that this "new" disease killing oaks in Central texas wasn't oak wilt, but "Decline". That was because a MN study on temp survival of the fungus made these people think it's too hot here for wilt. One single study, this mistake resulted from 'taking shortcuts' in research. Sloppy science.

That opened my door, and my mind was already distant from the conventional ones, as I still am. I know this disease, the hosts, and predict it will only assume an even more virulent role. Introductions of cheaper (and suppossedly less toxic)fungistat treatments isn't the focus I like to think about. Conclusions from years of nutritional ammending - field data from survival numers of infected hosts - show clearly that the less complicated approach has resulted in more positive statistical averages. Finland has been buried under the reality of acidic increases in it's rainfall averages and has rectified the damages somewhat by neutralizing the chemistry of this fallout, which could be ignored by a forest pathologist if he were to look at individual tree health and conclude that boring insects, fungal rots, and bacterial scorches were to blame for the dieoffs experienced there. A mycologist seldom looks at the broad picture when told to study the particular suspect invading fungi that's attributing to the decline of forest health, but he just may engineer a chemical remedy to that specific parasite - when in simple fact the rainfall may have been exacerbating the soil changes necessary to promote an imbalance leading to infestation of said individual threats. It's the same thing with EAB, SPB, and a myriad of forest killers. Australia has experience with rabbits invading the grasslands...you know why? Yeah. Man.

It takes a village to raise a child, it takes an ecologist to understand the systems operating in the world. Yet the environment for such science has been impeded by business, exploited by commerce, and silenced by greed.

Oak wilt is a lovely study, a wonderful invader. But in order to understand it in order to control at least some aspects of it's fedding frenzy, we need to see a much broader picture...not just buy some juice we're told works and charge the hell out of a customer only to find three years later the magestic oak relapses, we might get to take it down, and nothing but time an a wonderful specimen was wasted. But someone made some money. That's not why I'm an arborist. There are other ways we need to practice our art, apply our science, and offer service to people that would include the trees they hire us for.

Hope that answers a little of your questions.
 

trees4est

Member
I'm certainly no mycologist. I thought that endohyphae were a response to stresses by certain types of fungi, not a mutation that would pass on to succeeding generations. I certainly may be wrong. And it is true that many organisms can mutate to have resistance to chemicals, either human-made or tree-made.
What is causing these nutrient deficiencies? Were they always there, or were you implying that they have shown up lately because of pollution? Do you guys in TX get much acid deposition? We get hammered here in the Southern Appalachians, all the crap from the Ohio and Tennessee valleys get strained out right here.
I'd have to agree that in most cases, environmental triggers cause almost all tree disorders. Unless you're talking about either a newly introduced pest or disease, or a newly mutated one.
 

Chum

New Member
We have acid, yes.

Testing indicates severe changes in the last couple decades. Northern Mexico, where eight months of our yearly weather comes from has industrialized, big time. Most power generated there is local, coal plants are burning sub-standard lignite high in sulfur (and uranium) and no scrubber technology to neutralize it.

Business interests don't want to hear about it, but I implicate the forest (and plant) disease epidemics we have to be directly connected. Fresh water fish is polling highest mercury levels ever, prompting warnings about consumption. Power plant emmissions are the source there as well. It's gradeschool detective work to trace these connections, but political greed to suppress it.

I show people the simple litmus test with rain water. Ever test a 4.2? Vinegar comes close.

We never had early isolates of wilt grow the endohyphea. It's a post-1990 phenomena.
 

Nickrosis

New Member
Hmmm, what a great site. =) I was searching for info about Quali-pro, and here comes this site. Basically, it affirmed for me that Quali-pro is a legitimate company and makes a quality product. The next step is to find a company that goes to the next level in research as Reed is making quite exquisitely clear! But in the meantime, my googling and eugoogling is complete.
 

Chum

New Member
"Googling" is getting more results from the ones who invest more monies to make sure your inquiries are peppered with commercial hits instead of public knowledge like it used to be - or should be. But hey, this is America and it's purpose is business.

We're still patiently awaiting lab results from all the players in the "magic bullet" debate, and it's a debate only because people are finding reasons to ask questions. That's apparently a problem for marketers, that we would question their claims.

In the meantime, I have oaks left. Some magestic and awesome, other's just in locations good people (I have selection criteria) control. No advertising, no hype...I make a living and sleep well, no aspiriations of grandeur and no dreams of riches based on cultural definitions. When in the past we've shared information - lawyers enter, boardrooms intervene, and some slick shyster talks glowingly of revenue, willing to promote a version that's quicker to manufacture, cheaper to apply, and is resistant to academia's critique...never mind it may not work.

No. I ignore the hyping sales promotions, the hustlers, the people in business to make money beyond worth. I just have only a couple hundred surviving trees now that understand in combination what little 'ol us are trying to do WITH them, not TO them. And kudos to those other tree people who are real, in areas afflicted, and attempt - through empathy and reason - to understand the problems they experience and effect a program that helps, not hinders, based on monied influence vs. understandings that money can't affect nor change, only cause.

In short, greed is killing trees and without seeing the validity of that simple statement, no one can help an epidemic, only assist it.

Now I'll shut up and expect a public bitch-slapping.
 

Chum

New Member
I do agree that QualiPro has some pretty dedicated people behind it. I'd like to see them successful and they would be astronomically more so if they incorporated a few little nutritional details..insofar as survival rates.
 

Chum

New Member
.....

Another year has passed and the experts remain curiously silent but their compounds are still promoted.
 

Nickrosis

New Member
Well, I'm two weeks behind myself last year, but here I am finding this thread again. Quali-Pro is taking up more real estate in Midwest Arborist Supplies's catalog, and I still can't find any other info about the quality of their products, which is pretty disappointing for me. I like to find results when I search for a company plus the word "problem" or "quality" or so on.

I did try their imidacloprid water soluble packets last fall for soil injections and found our treated trees were holding up much better than untreated neighbor trees for things like leafhoppers on honeylocusts. I'll have to check my rates and see if I can go stronger in some cases because in high insect pressure, some feeding was still occurring.

With oak wilt, though, there's more at stake than some nibbled leaves. I wonder when their extension findings will progress from "seeming" to something definite. Short of that, I'd like to know if the inert ingredients in the product are all the same and where the products are manufactured. Qualiproguy, can you share that?

Nick
 

TProsser

New Member
While I know it is a great thing to save a couple of dollars and smart as a businessman to do so. There are other factors that need to be considered. What is the company doing for the industry? Are they doing research? Are they developing anything new or innovative that helps you? Are they supporting you with information and seminars? These things may look free - but I guarantee you they are not free. Without these things your business cannot grow, become more effective, or bring your customers better results and better information.

A company like Qualipro is in business for 1 reason. Copy products for as cheaply as possible and make as much raw cash as possible. They will not spend any money on research, developing new products, creating education, creating marketing or a website that does anything but a list of their products. They certainly give nothing to tree associations, students, tree foundations, or anyone else.

If you choose to use them you will save a few dollars. But if you then go to others who are spending a lot of money to do research, application guides, videos, educational programs, etc. and use these materials and information..............it is wrong.
 

Nickrosis

New Member
It's a different business model. The problem is that your "research" is really advanced product testing unlike the "research" that oakwilt is referring to that means going outside of trying different levels of your own products and purely looking for the best solution. What your company is doing is great and why it gets supported by so many businesses. Quali-Pro is doing its own thing and will hopefully stop selling fungicides that claim to have no resistance!

Like any business, the success is determined from inside forces, not the outside. Competition will have less of an effect than leadership, and I believe that should be the focus.
 
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