Don't take Certifications for Granted

flyingsquirrel25

Well-Known Member
#22
I follow you, you make a sound point. I was under the impression, however, that the ISA cert required a certain level of Ethics in regards to tree care, and the topping and protected wetlands issues raised my eyebrows to the point of nearly coming off.
You are absolutely correct. There is a code of ethics that if you want your cert you have to sign.
http://www.isa-arbor.com/certification/resources/cert_Ethics_CACodeofEthics.pdf
No where in it does it mention topping or wetlands. Thus the reason it is difficult to make any headway with these hacks. Because they can find an excuse, way around or semi plausible theory why they are right. Even our ANSI z allows for exceptions for extremely dangerous practices. The code of ethics is really the same.
I agree you are in a tough spot, turn them in = no more job, essentially. You don't someone might get hurt. I agree something's gotta change. Some markets are terrible (i.e. Yours, Steve's and many others). Some aren't so bad and some are great. How do we focus $$$ to pick up the bad areas.?
 

Greg_L

Active Member
#24
Columbus has excellent tree care companies.
They do. Unfortunately, we're trying to move up towards Whiteland/Greenwood because I have a part-time position at a church up there that is a priority. Trying to get the job to follow us is a bit more tricky than doing things the other way around.

No where in it does it mention topping or wetlands.
Hunh. That's disappointing...my ANSI/TCIA pruning standard discusses the issues of topping, so it's interesting that it didn't make it into the ISA C.O.E.
 

tc262

Well-Known Member
#27
The only cert I'd put any weight behind is the tcia accreditation. At least they come out and take a look at your operation before giving you the accredited status.
 

BRT

Well-Known Member
#28
Seems like you've found a pretty crazy place to work. Dangerous too!
In no way am I trying to split hairs---but, since you brought it up, there is one point I feel like commenting on:
Not what I wanted to be posting this week, but here goes.

"No. Don't start your notch with the top cut...."
I always start the notch cut with the bottom cut. In cases where precise direction is key, I want that gunning sight to be pointed like a laser at my target; not up in the air. Then, I bring that angled cut down to meet it. I have seen others make the angled cut first, & they seem to like it. I believe this practice has also been taught at some higher levels. Really, it doesn't matter, so long as, after the notch is made, and the 2 cuts meet, you can put the bar in tight against the back of the notch, and the gunning sight is aimed where you want it.

*Disclaimer---I do not bring the horizontal cut back past the notch, as in the picture from the op. Nor have I seen that taught anywhere.
 

jed1124

Active Member
#29
Thanks for the input/support! It's nice to know that I am , in fact, not crazy, and that this is (in fact) an inadequate work environment.


"One of these is not like the other...one of these just doesn't belong..."

Today I was informed that wedges are for beginners, and you should never file your depth gauges. You, sir, are incorrect.
Your working in a dangerous environment. I would walk if it is at all possible. Nothing is more dangerous than someone who thinks they know what they are doing but doesn't have a clue.
 

Nish

Well-Known Member
#31
They do. Unfortunately, we're trying to move up towards Whiteland/Greenwood because I have a part-time position at a church up there that is a priority. Trying to get the job to follow us is a bit more tricky than doing things the other way around.
Plenty of churches here in NC. Consider moving the family down here and enjoying more temperate winters with a crew of heathen tree pros in sore need of more brains, talent, and moral tutelage.

Love the post. Brings back memories. Very enjoyable to observe from afar.
 
#32
There are some good arguments (which I agree) that mandatory licenses in any field reduce quality and drive up cost.

Licenses do not equal competence. Competence can only be demonstrated.

 

Tony

Well-Known Member
#33
Seems like you've found a pretty crazy place to work. Dangerous too!
In no way am I trying to split hairs---but, since you brought it up, there is one point I feel like commenting on:

I always start the notch cut with the bottom cut. In cases where precise direction is key, I want that gunning sight to be pointed like a laser at my target; not up in the air. Then, I bring that angled cut down to meet it. I have seen others make the angled cut first, & they seem to like it. I believe this practice has also been taught at some higher levels. Really, it doesn't matter, so long as, after the notch is made, and the 2 cuts meet, you can put the bar in tight against the back of the notch, and the gunning sight is aimed where you want it.

*Disclaimer---I do not bring the horizontal cut back past the notch, as in the picture from the op. Nor have I seen that taught anywhere.
Starting with the top cut allows you to peak through the kerf and line up the bottom cut. Professional model saws should have felling sites 270º (both sides, and top).

You are correct a proper notch and hinge is the goal no matter how you get there safely. :bailando:

Tony
 

Brocky

Well-Known Member
#34
I still get a chuckle when I think of the foreman's "reasoning" for not doing the top cut first. What he was saying is he is unable to do it that way, so therefore it must be the wrong way.
 

southsoundtree

Well-Known Member
#35
on the sloping or horizontal cut first derail, i'll add (with slightly jumbled thoughts, 140' dead grand fir this afternoon, now stands a wee bit shorter)...


When you have a heavy saw and long bar, does anyone start with the sloping cut for a precision fell? I put the saw on the dogs/ tree as soon as possible. I can't imagine aiming an MS880 with a 50" bar, in this way. When you can get your bar horizontal to start your sloping cut, I can see that it works. If they're teaching it in most classes, its geared toward less experienced people who will be using small bars and saws in the more typical ways.

What about when you have to cut high, due to defect, such as a cavity, root disease, co-dominant stems from ground level?



I cut my horizontal first, get the saw 'gunned' right (including the offset from the center of the tree to the gunning sight), then make sure my sloping cut is right.


As was said, any safe way to a proper notch is a good way to view it.

Different things work for different people for different situations.

Also, humboldts save work on popping out a big face-cuts, especially double-cuts.
 

Tony

Well-Known Member
#36
on the sloping or horizontal cut first derail, i'll add (with slightly jumbled thoughts, 140' dead grand fir this afternoon, now stands a wee bit shorter)...


When you have a heavy saw and long bar, does anyone start with the sloping cut for a precision fell? I put the saw on the dogs/ tree as soon as possible. I can't imagine aiming an MS880 with a 50" bar, in this way. When you can get your bar horizontal to start your sloping cut, I can see that it works. If they're teaching it in most classes, its geared toward less experienced people who will be using small bars and saws in the more typical ways.

What about when you have to cut high, due to defect, such as a cavity, root disease, co-dominant stems from ground level?



I cut my horizontal first, get the saw 'gunned' right (including the offset from the center of the tree to the gunning sight), then make sure my sloping cut is right.


As was said, any safe way to a proper notch is a good way to view it.

Different things work for different people for different situations.

Also, humboldts save work on popping out a big face-cuts, especially double-cuts.
I do, even with a realy big saw. Just my way. I don't think cutting top or bottom first is indicative of experience or skill. The mark of experience is applying the felling concept to the situation and making face cut, hinge and back cut work with the situation with sawyers discretion and experience as the ultimate guide.

I am not sitting on the fence and saying to each their own. Quite the contrary. Learn the concept, apply it using the techinque that fits. You can fuck a felling cut up in many ways top or bottom cut first, last or in between.

Tony
 

Greg_L

Active Member
#37
Seems like you've found a pretty crazy place to work. Dangerous too!
In no way am I trying to split hairs---but, since you brought it up, there is one point I feel like commenting on:

I always start the notch cut with the bottom cut. In cases where precise direction is key, I want that gunning sight to be pointed like a laser at my target; not up in the air. Then, I bring that angled cut down to meet it. I have seen others make the angled cut first, & they seem to like it. I believe this practice has also been taught at some higher levels. Really, it doesn't matter, so long as, after the notch is made, and the 2 cuts meet, you can put the bar in tight against the back of the notch, and the gunning sight is aimed where you want it.

*Disclaimer---I do not bring the horizontal cut back past the notch, as in the picture from the op. Nor have I seen that taught anywhere.
Absolutely. I can follow this line of thought; I DO feel like doing the bottom cut gives me a somewhat more precise aim than the angled cut. In this scenario, we were dropping dead ash trees on the edge of a woodlot inward to mitigate risk. Aiming trees at a danger-free zone. There was, essentially, no risky target present. Since dead-on accuracy was not needed, I used the method that I find to be easiest to error-free line up my notch cuts. My issue with his statement stemmed from two things: His reason for starting low (which was stupid...sounded like he just said it to say something. I can make a cut as deep as I please from anywhere, thank you very much...), and then his shoddy performance which was then supposed to be the proof in the pudding.

If someone would like to, in person, give me advice based on their experience, I'm all ears...even if it's not my preferred way, I'm always up for a valid reason to try something else. Therein lies the rub: I want a valid reason. Thank you for sharing yours!

EDIT: I quit today, and start with a different company on Monday, one town over. I interviewed the owner, you might say, on his safety policies, and they're much more where I'd like to be. Daily job briefings and a weekly friday safety talk with all crews. ISA pruning standards. Feeling much better about this one.
 

Tony

Well-Known Member
#38
Absolutely. I can follow this line of thought; I DO feel like doing the bottom cut gives me a somewhat more precise aim than the angled cut. In this scenario, we were dropping dead ash trees on the edge of a woodlot inward to mitigate risk. Aiming trees at a danger-free zone. There was, essentially, no risky target present. Since dead-on accuracy was not needed, I used the method that I find to be easiest to error-free line up my notch cuts. My issue with his statement stemmed from two things: His reason for starting low (which was stupid...sounded like he just said it to say something. I can make a cut as deep as I please from anywhere, thank you very much...), and then his shoddy performance which was then supposed to be the proof in the pudding.

If someone would like to, in person, give me advice based on their experience, I'm all ears...even if it's not my preferred way, I'm always up for a valid reason to try something else. Therein lies the rub: I want a valid reason. Thank you for sharing yours!

EDIT: I quit today, and start with a different company on Monday, one town over. I interviewed the owner, you might say, on his safety policies, and they're much more where I'd like to be. Daily job briefings and a weekly friday safety talk with all crews. ISA pruning standards. Feeling much better about this one.
Good for you.

Tony
 
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