Documenting my hand-sewn eye process

Jimmycrackcorn

Well-Known Member
Hello Mr CrackCorn, received the length of 8mm Epi yesterday, thanks very much! I'm thinking of making the prussik portion of an adjustable false crotch with it, I'll sew a ring on to it (two eyes on the ring). Yeah that cover is tight! This will be fun. I will send out your industrial ballpoint needle Monday.
-AJ
Nice.. Nice!

Just fyi.. measure before stitching.. i think i cut longer than what u requested.

Say.. what do you think is more versitile.. a floating ring loop or your typical two eye ring loop.. (like the one your planning on)..

I've seen some scenarios & some hypothetical scenarios, where the floating loop could be useful. Just one benefit i think of is, more room with only one prusik "leg" in small ring to pass sewn climb line terminations.. Or the ability to for it to equalize if used in swabish style lanyard adjuster by tying & passing lanyard through ring.. I'm just trying to think of the drawbacks..

Also, in a Pinto Pully scenario, which of the two connection styles do you think is stronger? The two Eyes..? Or the Loop configuration.
 
Just out of curiosity, what was going to happen to the vehicle or loader.. I'm having a hard time picturing a 9mm rope damaging a loader..lol.. know what i mean?
The rope itself wasn't going to do any damage. But the hardware holding it to the truck could crack the grill (think the steel ring I had on it, or the carabiner I broke lol) But my bigger concern was the brakes were slipping on the truck while we were pulling against them. Not a huge concern, but since it's the bosses 70' forestry truck that was less than 6 months old, I figured an abundance of caution was prudent.
I've seen some scenarios & some hypothetical scenarios, where the floating loop could be useful. Just one benefit i think of is, more room with only one prusik "leg" in small ring to pass sewn climb line terminations.. Or the ability to for it to equalize if used in swabish style lanyard adjuster by tying & passing lanyard through ring.. I'm just trying to think of the drawbacks..
My personal experience with this is it doesn't much matter. The instance's I've found where it HAS to be one or the other are so far and few between, that you probably already have another piece of gear (pulley, biner, prussik etc) available that you can use it instead.

Also, in a Pinto Pully scenario, which of the two connection styles do you think is stronger? The two Eyes..? Or the Loop configuration.
This on the other hand does make a difference. I think 2 legs is WAY better, from a usage standpoint. It's easier to setup a throwline through for setting a false crotch from the ground, rope is easier to install between the cheeks, and retrieval links in the form of steel rings or XSRE biners pass through without trouble (they always caught on the spacer when ever i tried a loop). Only downside is the rope isn't fully captured on the pulley (i.e. it can lift out) but in actual usage this has never been a problem


Also forgot to add, that the machine stitched eye had some sort of locking stitch on it, done in 2 passes with doubled up thread
 
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moss

Well-Known Member
Nice.. Nice!

Just fyi.. measure before stitching.. i think i cut longer than what u requested.

Say.. what do you think is more versitile.. a floating ring loop or your typical two eye ring loop.. (like the one your planning on)..

I've seen some scenarios & some hypothetical scenarios, where the floating loop could be useful. Just one benefit i think of is, more room with only one prusik "leg" in small ring to pass sewn climb line terminations.. Or the ability to for it to equalize if used in swabish style lanyard adjuster by tying & passing lanyard through ring.. I'm just trying to think of the drawbacks..

Also, in a Pinto Pully scenario, which of the two connection styles do you think is stronger? The two Eyes..? Or the Loop configuration.
If I understand you correctly, this will be a sliding, setable or floating loop (the prussik/ring combo) for a length adjustable retrievable false crotch. I think you know more than me about the rest of your questions ;-)
-AJ
 

Jimmycrackcorn

Well-Known Member
If I understand you correctly, this will be a sliding, setable or floating loop (the prussik/ring combo) for a length adjustable retrievable false crotch. I think you know more than me about the rest of your questions ;-)
-AJ
Ok.. haha.. no problem man... One of my flaws is, get pretty technical with simple questions.. my bad..

You just referencing an adjustable friction saver..

But what i was asking is, how are you making the prusik... I'll show you the two versions below..

As you can see in these first two pictures the ring on the prusik loop floats.. (I couldn't find any examples of them sitting by themselves unwrapped, but the ring just floats around on the loop)


So there's that way above, which i feel can be a little more versitile, especially if you want it the ring tight to the wraps..

Then there's this more common method where we see two legs sewn to the ring...


I was just trying to figure out the pro's & cons between the two styles as I've always gone with the two leg version before i started stitching as i never thought an end to end double braid splice wild be ideal for the floating version..
 

moss

Well-Known Member
Ok.. haha.. no problem man... One of my flaws is, get pretty technical with simple questions.. my bad..

You just referencing an adjustable friction saver..

But what i was asking is, how are you making the prusik... I'll show you the two versions below..

As you can see in these first two pictures the ring on the prusik loop floats.. (I couldn't find any examples of them sitting by themselves unwrapped, but the ring just floats around on the loop)


So there's that way above, which i feel can be a little more versitile, especially if you want it the ring tight to the wraps..

Then there's this more common method where we see two legs sewn to the ring...


I was just trying to figure out the pro's & cons between the two styles as I've always gone with the two leg version before i started stitching as i never thought an end to end double braid splice wild be ideal for the floating version..
Ahhh, ok. Pictures are so much easier than reading. Yeah, the last version, I like the way the two sewn eyes capture the ring. Also think it’s potentially more versatile if I want to temporarily repurpose it, for example to make a mechanical redirect, or as part of a quick MA system for a rescue, or something else.

I really like thinking of climbing gear/system parts and even climbing technique as “modules” that can do several things, means less gear on my harness, always fighting the battle against too much gear hanging on me.

An example of a climbing technique “module” is my Pantin/footlock technique that works equally across climbing systems, moving or stationary and takes away the need for a Haas or SAKA-Mini. Not as efficient physically but the removal of extra gear and easy use across different systems makes it an overall win, for me.
-AJ
 
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Jimmycrackcorn

Well-Known Member
Ahhh, ok. Pictures are so much easier than reading. Yeah, the last version, I like the way the two sewn eyes capture the ring. Also think it’s potentially more versatile if I want to temporarily repurpose it, for example to make a mechanical redirect, or as part of a quick MA system for a rescue, or something else.

I really like thinking of climbing gear/system parts and even climbing technique as “modules” that can do several things, means less gear on my harness, always fighting the battle against too much gear hanging on me.
-AJ
Yes.. i agree.. less is more when planned out accordingly.

So with the two sewn eyes loop, instead of a end to end loop, are you seeing something that i am not as far as your repurposing? I'm trying to follow but i can't see how the end to end loop ring couldn't do what the twin sewn version could..

Really, the only difference i can see right now with the end to end floater, is the ability to get it closer to the parent rope.. although you can still get the ring much closer with the eyes sewn vs hand spliced, the end to end loop ring can get even closer.. Whether that is a huge benefit while actually climbing, i haven't noticed yet.. it just seems like a way to make it more compact.. & i like compact... Like a 6mm Thimble loop on a fimbleSaver, super compact & tight to the parent rope vs long like a pullySaver's Pinto Loop or add on Ring 28/34 Loop..

However, like that last statement above suggests, i do believe alot of this to be application specific..
Regardless of floating or sewn, you go with the longer setup & you now have the ability to tie different directional prusiks.. Swabish.. Klimbheist.. etc, instead of only having enough length to do a 6 wrap.. but then i guess you could still use the floating one for that too if you made it long enough & then used 8 wraps to get it super close on that adjustable friction saver..

In the end, I'm still trying to figure out which would be stronger.. Two sewn eyes or an end to end.. both are going to be wrapped in a prusik configuration & both will start slipping around 1200-1500 lbs if I'm not mistaken.. However repurposing may be where the two sewn eyes outshine the end to end.. like using it in a traditional basket "mode". I'd bet the eyes beat out an end to end.. Basket "mode".. lol.. as if it's transforming or switching gears.. were definitely rope geeks..

Anyhow..
6 in one, half dozen in the other aye..lol.. always the case with the stuff..
 
There is a third alternative via tom hoffman's idea here. Where you have standard eye and eye with rings added on each end

I suppose if you wanted increased versatility you could use dissimilar sized rings so it could be used as a mini ring and ring friction saver independent of the main friction saver use
 

Jimmycrackcorn

Well-Known Member
@moss..
Hey.. when i ''@moss'' you, do you get a notification? I believe at least on the web version the @xyz becomes a link to that person's profile.. at least i thought it did..

Regardless.. i have a question for you.. or maybe t-tech as i could have sworn i seen him do the same thing.. but maybe not... Either way... What is this called below? Is it round/parameter stitching, just going the wrong way?



I swear i saw someone do this.. i may have just got brockys pics mistaken, but i thought it was him.. i been looking for about an hour for the pic i was thinking if I'm my head. I wanted to give this 8mm kernmantle a shot but this Tex400 i have is making things bulge like crazy.. even on 10mm.. i figured the round/parameter stitching method would equal less thread stuffed through the Cordage.. That & Brocks 8m rit sewn like that broke over 8k... If the parameter wasn't a legit method, it wouldn't have had those incredible results..
 

Brocky

Well-Known Member
Yes, that’s the round perimeter stitching, but they are too close together and look very tightly pulled. You don’t need as many stitches as the the other style, as each stitch is four times the thread strength. This type of stitching works different than the machine type of sewing.

I’ve not had any round perimeter stitching tested. The cord that tested a little over 6k was one that combined a straight bury with stitching, which were just lines of locked stitches. This is how I’ve been using the round perimeter, rather than joining two pieces together.
 

Jimmycrackcorn

Well-Known Member
Yes, that’s the round perimeter stitching, but they are too close together and look very tightly pulled. You don’t need as many stitches as the the other style, as each stitch is four times the thread strength. This type of stitching works different than the machine type of sewing.

I’ve not had any round perimeter stitching tested. The cord that tested a little over 6k was one that combined a straight bury with stitching, which were just lines of locked stitches. This is how I’ve been using the round perimeter, rather than joining two pieces together.
Hmm.. too close & too tight.. interesting.. but I'll deff take your word for it..

So the picture i was trying to describe & the one you responded about isn't the one in reference.. however i do remember the experimental buried technique you tested.

The one i keep referencing that broke at over 8k was this one below.. it's a pic taken from another thread Mumford started.. i swore it was a product of yours Brock.
 

Jimmycrackcorn

Well-Known Member
Hey.. has anyone noticed or had trouble using needles that fit larger threads like Tex-400 & then when you try to use a smaller thread the needle itself will hollow out the hole & make it harder to secure the lock of the stitch?

I finally got some smaller thread thinking it would help keep the stitched portion of the eye from bulging outward & becoming rock hard.. but even with the smaller thread it's still happening. I think i have a solution to it though that will only require an adjustment of where I'm putting the first pass, I'll just adjust inward instead of starting right in the middle of my squared & centered chevrons. However, In addition to that, when I'm trying to use the smaller thread, my locks are essentially just floating inside the hole that was created, from the needle. The needle ive been using is a ball point 180/24 - 135-17 by organ.. I'm thinking a slimmer needle (although probably not as strong) would not hollow out the hole as much.


Also, interesting side note..
I disassembled a RopeLogic/GrizzlySplice on my 8mm Bee-Line. I had used it inapropriatley in a straight pull scenario, so i didn't want to trust it after. Regardless.. What i found was interesting. . Although the last other passes of most these Grizzly Splices look like there's barley any stitches, there's 4 passes total. The first is made on the very inner chevrons & basically end up becoming invisible.. at the end of the pass there is some weird deviation from just starting back up for #2 pass, where it looks as if that whole pass is independently secured with some sort of a single lock around the inner surface portion of the rope & then the #2 pass starts.. rinse & repeat until you have 4...
Dont get me wrong, I'm sure there's WAY MORE TO IT than what i just tried to explain out via text.. Just thought it was worth posting. The thread also send very similar to what would be a "Waxed C-lon", which i cannot find anywhere..

Here's a pic of the very first pass. I'll get some better ones when i figure out how it's actually terminated in the end.. as that was a bear to get undone without stripping threads.. couldn't really figure it out other than the deviation i mentioned above..

First pic is showing how it deviates from just starting a 2nd pass.

 
Woah.. my last post was long.. hopefully y'all got something out of that deconstruction.. I plan to do the other side, but with a much more patient approach.

As far as the needle size affecting the smaller Cordage.. within my set of pics you'll see i tried two different methods.. the more messy side, is how I've been going about it for a bit now.. where my first pass goes right to the centered Chevron & biased towards the inside of it.. next pass goes inbetween, & the last goes tight & outside.. However by starting so far out, I'm compressing half of the Cordage in the first pass & counting on my sense of feel not to cinch uneven ( which can distort your centered chevrons markers/ references). By the last 3rd pass if the needle is big enough, your hogging things out trying to get it through & things start to bulge.. a fourth pass is out of the question at that point too.

The neater of the 4 pics belong to the side where i actually did 4 passes with minimal bulging/distortion & at no point was the 180/24 needle hard to push through. All i did different was start like the Rope Logic eye shows, or kinda shows. O centered everything up & went way inside for the first & snugged pretty tight.. Second pass, IIRC, i went half a pic/thread whatever you want to call it, outside of the first pass. Third I went Center Chevron but w/a inside bias... The fourth i went Center Chevron & biased to outside of center.

How strong is it going to be? IDK.. but there's definatley 4 early to achieve passes going on there.. & by doing so this way, it was allot easier for me trying & attempting to keep things aligned, even with minimal bulging. Not perfect, but still allot easier. I also tried to mimic the inside, but outside, terminations at the end of each pass on the Rope logic. I say termination, as that's the only reason i can think of for having them on the Rope Logic/Grizzly eyes. I'm not even sure y'all know what I'm referencing with that. I tried to show it in LAST pic on my LAST post where one part of the stich is inside the seam but outside the single leg of rope. You'll see if you look close enough to the pic.

Bottom Lock 4 pass... I swear there is 4 passes in there..lol.


Top 4 pass


Bottom 3 pass


Top 3 pass


Quick side note..
Can you stich Maxim Tech Cord? I've only seen knot terminations recommended.
 

Brocky

Well-Known Member
The stitich in between the two cords on the Grizzly might just happen as the switch from one pass to a wider one occurs. The number of stitches per second might not change when the transition happens, and a lock stitch is made in between.

I wonder if your new, easier method of sewing might not be as strong if the cover was polyester, or nylon, rather than the stronger technora cover of the RIT. But since there are four passes it might not be an issue. Easier sewing would seem to mean less distortion of the cord, which might add strength.

The shorter the tail after sewing would make it easier to be pulled through the stitches when loaded.

I’ve sewn Tech cord, but only for foot loops, nothing lift support. I was only able to do two passes. Not sure its parallel filament core would hold the stitches with a large load.
 

moss

Well-Known Member
Quick side note..
Can you stich Maxim Tech Cord? I've only seen knot terminations recommended.
Yes, I sew Maxim Tech Cord for my double eye rope wrench tethers. I do one pass of a fairly open zig-zag stitch a couple inches long for each eye with 50 lb. test waxed polyester thread. I've done 4 tethers built on a tech cord foundation and they're all still in service many years later.

Here's what the stitching on the inside of the tether looks like, I'll add more stitching to "lock" all the tech cord lengths together, the eye on the right is where the Rope Wrench attaches:



This is a finished tether with other components added in and shrink tubing on:

 
This photo album shows the construction details of my current shorty slic pin tether, also using a Tech Cord foundation for the attachment eyes and tether core:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/naturejournal/albums/72157689754866612

Relevant photo from the album:
Oh that's pretty fancy Moss! Now that i think about it, I'm pretty sure I've seen that before somewhere, i should have known it was you getting fancy.

I was wondering about stitching the Tech Cord as i have a little 6mm DMM thimble i want to streamline with stitching as opposed to knots with the Tech Cord.

Now, ideally, id like to use the 6mm Ocean Vectran T-berg was using in it.. I see Sherrill is stocking & will gouge me for some if i want.. but they are calling it 8mm. Soo I'm not too sure what's going on there as I've always thought the Ocean Vectran was 6mm, not saying it couldn't be made in 8mm.. but confusing never the less. I reached out last week but never heard back.

I wonder if your new, easier method of sewing might not be as strong if the cover was polyester, or nylon, rather than the stronger technora cover of the RIT.
What is you thinking behind the cover making a difference with the way i went about it with that method.. I'm not following.

The shorter the tail after sewing would make it easier to be pulled through the stitches when loaded.
I dont think I disagree, however, I'm only counting a couple picks worth of tail left after stitching on the majority of my machine made E2E's. So I'm just basing my distances & technique off of that.. you know?

Not sure its parallel filament core would hold the stitches with a large load.
This was my exact concern & why i was asking. Wasn't sure if i could successfully make an endless loop with one where the stitching goes in at the tails vs how Moss's wrench tool is made where i don't think it would be as concerning.




@ anyone..
How are y'all continuing on after snapping your thread mid project..? It's happened a couple times using smaller thread with my fingers taped up.. I'll pull to hard & boom.. it's snapped.. I've managed to terminate the thread in other cases but it requires me to remove previous stitches.. is there a better way to move forward after when it snaps & leaves no tail for immediate termination?
 
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moss

Well-Known Member
@ anyone..
How are y'all continuing on after snapping your thread mid project..? It's happened a couple times using smaller thread with my fingers taped up.. I'll pull to hard & boom.. it's snapped.. I've managed to terminate the thread in other cases but it requires me to remove previous stitches.. is there a better way to move forward after when it snaps & leaves no tail for immediate termination?
First things first, I haven’t sent the promised needle! Will do ASAP.

Yeah i’ve done that a few times. It never broke in the cordage so i’ve had some tail to work with. I guess I would back out enough stitches to gain some extra thread. I tie the two legs in a square knot push the ends back through to the other side, trim short, melt and squash with my thumb. Then continue stitching starting with a new length of thread, like nothing happened ;-)
-AJ
 

moss

Well-Known Member
Sewing tech cord for a thimble prussik, I think the stitched area would have to be too long. Just not enough meat in that tech cord to layer up the stitching. Maybe it’s possible, would be interesting to see what it breaks at.
 
First things first, I haven’t sent the promised needle! Will do ASAP.

Yeah i’ve done that a few times. It never broke in the cordage so i’ve had some tail to work with. I guess I would back out enough stitches to gain some extra thread. I tie the two legs in a square knot push the ends back through to the other side, trim short, melt and squash with my thumb. Then continue stitching starting with a new length of thread, like nothing happened ;-)
-AJ
Don't sweat it.. I've already forgotten what exactly it is your sending.. is it a modified needle or something.. or certain desired size? I can't remember.

Ok so you pretty much just terminate like normal.. i just hate having to remove prior stitches in order to do so.. figured they're might be a better way i was unaware of.
Sewing tech cord for a thimble prussik, I think the stitched area would have to be too long. Just not enough meat in that tech cord to layer up the stitching. Maybe it’s possible, would be interesting to see what it breaks at.
I think it's possible.. i mean if it's ok to sew parallel to begin with, all i would think would be needed is a smaller needle & thread to get the needed number of passes, minus the distortion. I think that fishing line Brock uses with a nice thin shafted needle would do the trick. I know i have some 50lb .4mm stuff that is really thin, so thin that i can't use it successfully with these SS sized needles we use.

Do y'all think that the titainium needless sold in the sewing industry are stronger? Or is that just a coating there putting on to reduce friction in higher speed machine scenarios.

Oh! Important question here. How is everyone counting stitches.. I've never really done this, but since I've been hearing in this other direction where i space them a bit, I figured I'd start keeping track. Do you count every single time the needle passes through the Cordage as a stitch, or are you counting every every other, as in only one side gets counted..?

For example, that 9mm Rit E2E, has 24 coming from side to side.. but if i only count one side it's 12.. which .. doesn't sound all that reassuring..lol. I'm really gonna have to start having these things tested.. it's just bothersome as i sometimes put a bit of effort into them. The ones I'm more curious about though, are the ones where ive ran out or have broken the thread mid way. The one I'm doing right now, i broke the thread twice! So frustrating..lol..
 
Some more Pics..
Don't get distracted though.. my questions above still need answers..lol..

This is Omniprogears 8mm kernamntle & i definitely let the tails fly too close to the sun on this one.. just posting to post.. & possibly show how this different method of spacing isn't bulging the Cordage as bad as it has in other projects I've done.. This is C-lon Tex 270 though so it's a bit smaller than the green Tex 400 I've used on alot of other stuff..

 
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