Comment on my plan

dmonn

Member
I have several situations like the one shown in the sketch. For this one I could just drop the fence and drop the mostly dead boxelder from the ground, but I want to climb it and make the planned cut mostly for practice for some of the other similar situations where I'm trying to protect something underneath a sketchy leaner. I've been climbing (my own trees) for about a year and a half, but rarely needed to do a limb walk (on a sketchy limb on a sketchy tree). For my primary support I plan on using a base tie on a different tree to reduce the lateral force on the branch. I want the force more in line with the primary support limb. I think a canopy tie-in would cause more of a lateral force when I'm at my planned cut. The primary support limb looks pretty solid from the ground, but it IS an ash that's been dead for 6-9 months. I plan to do a base tie for the limb walk support for the same reason, though this will have much less force on the line.

Comments? (please be kind--I'm not a pro).
 

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swingdude

De' Island Buzzer
Looks good from my couch. You say ash is dead? Where your primary PSP is? Now how do you feel about that? Shift your red base tie over to main tree.
 

dmonn

Member
Yuup. PSP is a dead ash, but a big one that hasn't been dead very long. What's the advantage to shifting the red base tie? My only other choices for a PSP are smaller dead ash trees.
 

Mitch Hoy

Active Member
I would be anchoring on to the trees that my PSP is through, but I can see the compression you are trying to create and it’s great that you are thinking about it.
This looks solid to me, although I haven’t seen the trees. Pre-planning like this is a great exercise and makes these situations go smoothly.
Your load will be shared between three trees, so dead or not, that’s a lot of redundancy. No crispy tie-ins, though! Thoroughly test your supports.
I would personally install a floating false crotch on the Ash and use MRT for that PSP in this situation, but that requires more gear and rope, and may just be my cup of tea.
You’re thinking about the right stuff.
 

DSMc

Well-Known Member
Your diagram shows that you have a good understanding of force vectors and how to manipulate them with creative base ties. It is an under-utilized technique for how helpful it can be.

However, anything involving dead Ash trees, needs careful study as they have earned their reputation for being brittle and untrustworthy.
 

dmonn

Member
Your diagram shows that you have a good understanding of force vectors and how to manipulate them with creative base ties. It is an under-utilized technique for how helpful it can be.

However, anything involving dead Ash trees, needs careful study as they have earned their reputation for being brittle and untrustworthy.
Thanks for the replies. I would certainly prefer to tie into a healthy tree, but in my woods there often aren't any choices. As long as the tree has not been dead for over a year and looks solid, I'll use it. Some look pretty crispy and I wouldn't even think about using them for support (except to lean against when I'm inspecting another tree). Those will either come down on their own or be cut from the ground. I've got a crispy one that's about 20" DBH that's just gonna come down on its own. I don't even like standing under it, and won't walk near it when it's windy. Fortunately that one's weighted away from anything of value, and when it comes down will just make a lot of noise.

OBTW, my day job is teaching high school geometry!
 

southsoundtree

Well-Known Member
I like your system, overall.

IF you're using a dead ash to Practice, maybe the risk: reward ratio is out of whack. Go practice on strong trees.


You need to get that section to land flat/ flattish to avoid it tip-landing and bouncing toward the fence.

A Beranek-described max-depth undercut or Coos Bay-style release will help.




Consider span-rigging practice or two independent rigging lines, and cut from the ground.
 

Tom Dunlap

Here from the beginning
Administrator
Something to consider with ash that died from EAB is that they've been dying slowly for years. EAB death creates deadwood that is much different than say DED. Go look at the thread about the sideway barberchair. The tree can be green and living but have no strength

YOur solution looks good
With two TIPS or a floating pulley gives you sgood positioning
 

dmonn

Member
Lots of good comments and suggestions. Thanks for the input.

Span rigging and cutting from the ground sounds interesting, for this and some of the other similar situations I'll have to deal with. I think I understand what you're referring to, but I'll look it up to be sure.

The dead ash for my PSP was halfway healthy last summer. The crown was thin, but leafed out. The union I'd pass the climbing line over would be the main trunk (which goes up another 30-40 feet), and a large, near-vertical branch. Both the main trunk and branch had leaves on it last Fall. I would "practice" on this one partly because of the size, recent death, and because I can position the base tip to reduce lateral forces. If I leave it for later, the ash won't get any stronger.

Most of the other similar situations have decent Norway maples or boxelders for PSPs and positioning. Those can wait a while.
 

swingdude

De' Island Buzzer
Yuup. PSP is a dead ash, but a big one that hasn't been dead very long. What's the advantage to shifting the red base tie? My only other choices for a PSP are smaller dead ash trees.
Just shift you base tie over to big dead ash. Not tied to adjacent tree I mean.
 

RopeShield

Well-Known Member
So much can go wrong. Practice on something else more predictable.
Dead Ash, dieng Manitoba Maple your Fn nuts:loco:
Give us some serious observations, seriously
The odds don't look in your favour with lack of informat
 

colb

Well-Known Member
You need to get that section to land flat/ flattish to avoid it tip-landing and bouncing toward the fence.
THIS, but forget about the fence. The butt can come back and hit the climber after the tips touch the ground.

If it is a box elder, it ought to shatter before that happens, but any other tree would spring back, and a box elder might still have game. You need to limb walk far enough out that the first cut can hang without touching the ground. That said, don't let it hang (but since it is box elder it should not hang - it will snap when you look at it...). Take a big saw and power through with a break cut. With the break cut, cut underneath a little bit to release the bark, then cut the top exactly even with the bottom. If you cut it in front, your saw may go with the branch. If you cut it behind, the branch may bypass the undercut and strip out underneath, then the butt will come back at your level.
 

Nish

Well-Known Member
Nice thread--we need more geometers in tree work! If you've not considered it already, a non-climbing option may be simpler and safer: tip tie the dead box elder with the "Limb Walk Support" line, letting the top of swing down as you cut the top of the tree out. You might be able to make that cut just above the fence top if the angles are good, the anchoring tree is strong, and the rigging line is taut and non-stretchy. A pole saw or a power pole saw might be helpful. Ladders are dangerous, but that might work as well.
 

dmonn

Member
THIS, but forget about the fence. The butt can come back and hit the climber after the tips touch the ground.

If it is a box elder, it ought to shatter before that happens, but any other tree would spring back, and a box elder might still have game. You need to limb walk far enough out that the first cut can hang without touching the ground. That said, don't let it hang (but since it is box elder it should not hang - it will snap when you look at it...). Take a big saw and power through with a break cut. With the break cut, cut underneath a little bit to release the bark, then cut the top exactly even with the bottom. If you cut it in front, your saw may go with the branch. If you cut it behind, the branch may bypass the undercut and strip out underneath, then the butt will come back at your level.
I often do a break cut when limbing a trunk after felling the tree. I learned from experience to cut very precisely, and exactly as you described to avoid the pitfalls you describe. Cutting with precision means paying attention to details. I worked with my neighbor recently to fell and cut up some property line trees, and saw him making a lot of the mistakes I was making a couple of years ago. I guess I have learned a few things along the way.
Nice thread--we need more geometers in tree work! If you've not considered it already, a non-climbing option may be simpler and safer: tip tie the dead box elder with the "Limb Walk Support" line, letting the top of swing down as you cut the top of the tree out. You might be able to make that cut just above the fence top if the angles are good, the anchoring tree is strong, and the rigging line is taut and non-stretchy. A pole saw or a power pole saw might be helpful. Ladders are dangerous, but that might work as well.
I like this suggestion. After reading all the cautions about dealing with dead ash, staying on the ground for this one sounds prudent. I think this may work. The angles look right and supporting trees seem strong enough. It would be a good, safe way to learn a new trick, and if I screw it up, all I have to do is fix a fence.
 

moss

Well-Known Member
...and if I screw it up, all I have to do is fix a fence.
Breaking fences is mandatory, all working arborists could moonlight as fence installers. They're usually ready to fall over in a breeze so one touch with 2" diameter wood and "Hey you just broke my highly valuable fence!"

Hide the children away for a moment. I busted a few "teeth" off the top of a cedar stockade fence yesterday. Taking out a beastly Norway maple pinned between two sheds and fence intersections of four yards. At some point I was throwing wood out of the tree from over one yard to a landing zone in another yard. Had an awkward long piece of deadwood to fling, looked good until at the moment of throwing my harness legstrap crunched un huevo. I could not follow thru with power on the throw ;-) A few fence teeth broken, so it goes. Pain was all gone within 15 minutes.
-AJ
 

owScott

Well-Known Member
This looks straight forward on paper, but so much of what we do is based on experience and looking at the situation in person. From your post you are questioning not so much the geometry but more if your main tie in will hold. I think that if where you make your base tie matters that much here, you are cutting it very close. As with all posts of this nature I am curious to your motivation. Do you plan on getting into tree work as a job? Just a hobby or trying to save money? If you aren't 100% about what your doing consider calling a pro.
 
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