Buttcatch log lowering video

simplyarbor

Active Member
It's a good point, Jomoco.
Answer is no, I am generally conservative and if they do lock it down, there is not much worry.
I go through several ground guys every year and like to get them up to speed quickly. Having a bucket for our use is a good way to take large pieces and have them get down wraps/weight and nuances of rigging.
 

jomoco

Active Member
Expert experienced rope men and crane operators are fantastic and very much appreciated,....while they last.

Being able to work safely with or without them is another trick entirely!

I've known far more bad ropers than good ones who rate me placing my life in their hands on a daily basis.

I like to hedge my bets in my favor as a rule.

jomoco
 

RopeShield

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
But that's the point I'm driving at!

Do you guys really put yourselves as climbers into a position where if your rope man screws up, you're totally screwed?

Or do you go conservative enough that you're covered whether he screws up or not?

What do you do without an experienced roper, go home?

jomoco

[/ QUOTE ]

I for one dislike the portawrap for big wood or anything big that requires a smooth ride. It just has to much bend.

Lil steps before the big ones fly and things always seem to go smooth.

If the roper is inexperienced I go to the OLDs and run in myself.
No one to blame but me then.
 

theXman

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
But that's the point I'm driving at!

Do you guys really put yourselves as climbers into a position where if your rope man screws up, you're totally screwed?

Or do you go conservative enough that you're covered whether he screws up or not?

What do you do without an experienced roper, go home?

jomoco

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, usually not totally screwed, but I'd be banged up or my back tweeked or something.

That first log Ox showed could have easily tweeked his back, even with hands braced. I've been there; i let another companies employee lower a decent size log. I went over it a few times, he was going to let it run to the ground. Nope, as it went over, he got scared and held it. My back got muscle spasms for a few days.

yes, I usually take big enough sections that if the groundperson decided to hold tight with no run when i called for a run, I would be messed up some.

That's his job, that's his skill. If he didn't have a skill to offer, then his job is not secure.
 

Rickytree

New Member
Had this happen years ago helping out a guy that was in business for years and had been in a car accident. So going against the guy that I was working for at the present time, I decided to help him out because he had no one and a wife and child. Wife didn't work. Go cut this poplar down, didn't see how many wraps around the tree, asked it he was ready, Yep, 3 wraps around the trunk and the top was a good size. Four foot lanyard on a 372 flew up and smashes me in the face. Kept my teeth but almost broke my nose. Next top went alittle different. Pinned him and his groundy against a fence and the tips of the top broke on their hard hats. Yippy Kay Yay MFer! Won't do jobs without the proper ground man. Too dangerous!! and just because they may have worked for who knows what or who don't mean squat.
 

dylanclimbs

Member
As a contract climber, like Jomo, I hedge bets. Death by a thousand cuts, they say. My prices and rates are good enough, and I'm productive enough that I've not experienced any disatisfaction with my work if I decide to work more conservatively, and go smaller. There are times when there is no other way but to push the limits on the size of piece being rigged, or you know that there will be a ride at the top, but I do what can to place the instance of error on my shoulders rather than the guy on the ground. If something is going to go wrong, it will be my fault, not the groundmans.

The guy I generally work with is not the most experienced roper, but he is coming along. I don't do the things that I would do with more experienced technicians.

If you all can't understand the contract climbers position consider this...Last week, I rigged a big pine limb through a porty, contractor I work with wanted to lock the limb off and cut some tips off to make it fit into the lz. So, he decides to wrap the rope around a rock on the ground to gain friction. Am I trusting this guy implicitly to lower a top without shaking me like a rag doll? F*&^ no. I actually dismantled the top of that tree with a handsaw, I was so perturbed by that action.

That, and uncontrolled/vertical speedlines are the contract climber's best friend.
 

Oxman

Member
Sap on the rope made the rope tacky on the porty, with a bend radius of the ratio of 5/8" line diameter to the spool diameter. Using one less wrap on the porty when cutting the tops & limbs resulted in runaway forces with logs. It was at the end of the load range with the fatter rope on a small device. A bigger lowering device could have helped.
 

Tony

Well-Known Member
Ox,

Would opening the face cuts up to 90+ degrees and letting them hinge over have helped, or do those conifers just brake anyway?

Tony
 

Oxman

Member
Just ask Pinocchio what happened when Gepetto sneezed.

What I like about the Buzz is that the comments are by folks who have been in similar situations with real-world experience. This isn't theory, it's refinement of arboricultural rigging practice.

Yes, it would have been nice if the rope had been allowed to run. But I don't believe it would have been possible with the available combination of tools.

It wouldn't have surprised me if any of those pieces had clipped the rope in half on a corner of the block or a stub. It would have caused a chunk to go thru the guy's driveway, making it difficult to collect payment at the conclusion of the job. On this job I was an employee, so that prospect didn't bother me as much as it would have if it had been my contract. We just made sure everybody was standing well out of the way during tipping.

If there was a block available with a larger diameter sheave, that may have been helpful, but not as much as if a GRCS or similiarly-sized LD was used.

Cinching up the 3/4" sling on the block with a Stilson Hitch was the best we could do under these circumstances. Getting the rope tight is exhausting.

The trunk was decidedly not cylindrical, what with the stub scars and gaps from bark furrows. The knot is tied while partially out of view of the climber. After loading, the parallel wraps of the Stilson Hitch were slanting lopsidedly downward on the pulley side, and were definitely not symmetrical.

The climbers flipline is placed just beneath the block hitch. The block hangs from the splice and hits the trunk below the flipline, which can be unnerving. The flipline is precluded from placement above the block sling, as any lower placement of the pulley causes more shock load.

It may appear that the block can cut the flipline, but don't be deceived. This is of prime significance to the climber, as death can occur from any downward sliding of the block that transfers load from the trunk to the climber. That's a no-no (emphasis mine). Get the block sling tight.

So far, no one has ventured a guess at how much these 300 pound logs weighed.

To calculate the dynamic force on the rigging, we can use a standard formula of computing double the weight unit of the work, plus one unit per foot of drop.

So, if the log weighs 300 pounds and falls one foot, that is 900 pounds on the rigging. If the log falls 2 feet, that is 1,200 pounds. Stretch may mean it is falling 3 feet, which is 1,500 pounds of force on the various parts of rigging.

During lockoff (which is what we have here) probably the lightest forces are on the sling securing the porty to the trunk. The highest forces are on the block. The weak link in the chain is the lowering line where it rolls over the block.

As the load hits the line, the knots cinch down and the ropes squeeze the bark at various places. After about 6 inches or so, everything stops moving and starts shrinking. Heat builds up at all these friction points and on the strands inside the layers of rope fiber.

Thanks for the comment about the orientation of the face. A Humboldt or wide face merely allows the piece to tip farther towards horizontal, or maybe just a bit beyond, prior to release of wood fibers in the hinge.

As the piece begins to tip, slack develops in the lowering line as the butt hitch moves closer to the pulley. As it begins to pass 90 degrees, the rope starts tightening up. When the work tips upside down, do I understand you to say that the load may be more vertical than diagonal?

If there were a downward pointing face, can the work actually move quicker as it spins thru a longer arc?

Gallileo said stuff only gets up to 66 feet per second in the first second of drop. So, no, I don't use Humboldt faces on lowering too much.

A wider face usually becomes a deeper face, due to saw handling difficulties. Here's where chainsaw accessories such as bubble levels on the handles and a laser kerf indicator need to be incorporated into product design by the manufacturers. More cleaning up of the cut face surfaces with the toy saw results in fatigue & delay. Any-old clean face ensures the work commits to a fall line above the block, and stays below the block. This means it doesn't spin around the tree and nail the climbers legs.

A deep face is known as, "cutting a lean into the tree". This change in the center of gravity wasn't needed because of the separate tag line tiptied on the work to commence the fall.

Here is where a GRCS would have allowed less slack by stretching the rope during linesetting. A porty just cannot compare. The sling securing the Portawrap to the trunk must be very low to the ground, so the holeman can lift the rope upward with enough force to get the rigging tight. Trunk flare can make tying this Stilson Hitch difficult. A marlinspike can tack it down. A round of wood used as a step next to the trunk can help the roper get get high enough to take the slack out of the lowering line.

The climber's best viewing option of the saw in the kerf to line up the final inches of the back cut is from the side. The best point to push and be out of the way, however, is directly behing the cut. Thus the pause to stow the saw, move back around and help push. This pause allows communication without the interference from noise of the saw.
 

Tony

Well-Known Member
Thanks for the reply Ox. My thought with a wider face was to keep the hinge intact longer thereby absorbing force through the pulling of the fibers as the log falls at the bottom of the arc. A humbolt would like not perform a well as a greater than 90 degree arc.

Furthermore, as the piece falls it pushes back on the main stem. If release is delayed by a larger face the stem comes back to vertical and perhaps a bit over center the opposite way slightly lessening stem "swing time."

It is my impression that the stem was too short and stout for the second effect.

My experience is generally with eastern hardwoods so the fibers pull and "stretch" better to do what I have described. Just wondering how different it would be if the majority of work was softer woods.

I agree with the cutting difficulties especially as the diameter increases. When I was younger it was a challenge. Now (still far from old). It is a PIA!

Tony
 
Top