Basics of Pruning and Removal for Beginners.

evo

Well-Known Member
#41
Simply not true..... "Stump shot" as it was called by Dent is only needed in situations where there is a chance the stump could come back off the stump, which generally does not apply to falling trees in suburban situations... Uphill, any chance of brushing or hitting other trees on the way down, or extremely massive trees that are so big just their weight when it starts to lean will cause back-push at the stump, then YES use stump shot.. otherwise perfectly at level or just above (1/2") is better when accuracy is the primary concern.

Evo you're statement shows that you are simply regurgitating the training you received from loggers without a complete understanding of the physics involved...

ps... this thread was supposed to be about pruning anyhow!
This beer is for you Danny boy
 

Scheffa

Active Member
#42
I generally always make sure my back cut is a couple inches higher, when falling large heavy trees helps ensure the tree doesn’t come backwards off the stump. Same goes when pushing a tree a with a excavator I always make sure the back cut is a few inches lower, depending on diameter to ensure the machine does not push the tree off the stump.
Intentionally over cutting the scarf on one side can greatly help turn a tree away from the lean should the species allow it
 

RopeShield

Well-Known Member
#44
If one follows the basics of yng tree training as found in https://www.amazon.ca/Arboriculture-Integrated-Management-Landscape-Shrubs/dp/0130888826 by Harris.
Application of these principles to whole trees is best imho.
Crown clean is an old practice applied to horticultural crops. Apples, peaches, grapes etc.
What this means is healthier, disease resistant, productive and most importantly tasty fruit.
What this means to the arborist is safer bigger trees faster and longer lived.
Most of the money we earn is not in removals, it is in pruning. Think of trees as fruit producers, oxygen producers etc. You are in charge of maximizing the production of the aforementioned,
therefore in charge of maximizing an organism that requires an effecient organic and chemical transport system. it is about flow and crown clean maximizes flow. The crown clean I know of an not what some individuals seem to think is a non contributor to health.
 

rico

Well-Known Member
#45
And if you were going to critique the above posting about basics falling for deer habitat, the 80% and 10% are much more suspect than the lack of stump shot.. while they may be fair guidelines for beginners, not too many folks could tell you why and get the answers right.. Yet so many individuals I have run across online get all bent out shape when someone cuts outside the box. Bottom line, they get all critical but don;t know what they are talking about

That includes you Rico... you can climb big trees so that has my respect, but you start pointing fingers and getting all mouthy at things that are clearly beyond your understanding... Your last post about bridging sidewalks was a real tell...
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Speaking of “tells” Daniel, I'm am still waiting for you to show us any evidence of that particular high-stumped, open-faced cut you posted staying on the stump.
 
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Daniel

Well-Known Member
#46
Crown clean is an old practice applied to horticultural crops. Apples, peaches, grapes etc.
What this means is healthier, disease resistant, productive and most importantly tasty fruit.
What this means to the arborist is safer bigger trees faster and longer lived.
Most of the money we earn is not in removals, it is in pruning. Think of trees as fruit producers, oxygen producers etc. You are in charge of maximizing the production of the aforementioned,
therefore in charge of maximizing an organism that requires an effecient organic and chemical transport system. it is about flow and crown clean maximizes flow. The crown clean I know of an not what some individuals seem to think is a non contributor to health.

Yes crown clean applies to fruit trees, especially apple which is the only fruit tree I prune... However it would be a huge mistake to prune mature hardwoods the same way apple trees are pruned.. Crown cleaning does what for a tree???? Removing live inner foliage... And you think that helps the flow???? How so???

Perhaps you think by removing the interior branches that are "using up" the flow and preventing it from getting to the branch tips... So you think that you, the guy with a chainsaw, know what's good for the tree better than the tree itself does.. That's a typical human-centric perspective. Let's cut off all the interior limbs and epicormic shoots (aka water sprouts or suckers) because this stupid tree has no idea what's good for it..

Truth is that crown cleaning is just a mild form of lions tailing. The practice evolved at a time when the average climber did not have the ability to climb out to the tips of each branch, but hey we gotta get paid so we better make it look like we're doing something important here.. SO lets cut the limbs we can reach, open up the center of the tree to show the branching structure, call it pretty, and make up a story that we are helping the tree's biology by maximizing flow..

Here's how I think of it... Tree is simply a giant solar panel. It's job is to collect sunlight. When the canopy grows tall and thick enough to prevent a lower limb from getting enough light to make it worth it's keep, the tree will pull the nutrients out of the limb and let it dry out (die). That's an intelligent decision. Trees also know when to break bud in the spring and drop leaves in the fall, which will vary according to weather and the trees health, how to wall off decay, etc. All of which points to the fact that the tree has its own intelligence. Trees make thousands of decisions and communicate within communities in ways that show a high level of intelligence, and that science is just beginning to scratch the surface of understanding.

The best way we tree workers can understand trees it to approach them on their level. Assume that they have an intelligent reason for everything they do. Trees have millions of years of evolution where they "learned" to reach for the sun. Big tree falls down in the forest, the small tree that gets to that new light first will out grow and shade off the competition. Trees evolved to grow in a wooded setting. Take that same tree which is programmed to reach for the sun and put it in a suburban setting where there is open sky, and the tree will reach for that sun, often outgrowing its ability to hold itself up.

An experienced arborist can look at the growth on a tree, examining each limb individually and prune accordingly to reduce weight on the branch tips of long over-extended reaching limbs. Each limb can be examined for structural weaknesses and the needed amount of weight removed from the limb to ensure it doesn't fail in storms or from summer limb drop. That type of pruning is best accomplished from a bucket truck which provides easier access to the branch tips.
 
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evo

Well-Known Member
#47
Truth is that crown cleaning is just a mild form of lions tailing. The practice evolved at a time when the average climber did not have the ability to climb out to the tips of each branch, but hey we gotta get paid so we better make it look like we're doing something important here.. SO lets cut the limbs we can reach, open up the center of the tree to show the branching structure, call it pretty, and make up a story that we are helping the tree's biology by maximizing flow..

Here's how I think of it... Tree is simply a giant solar panel. It's job is to collect sunlight. When the canopy grows tall and thick enough to prevent a lower limb from getting enough light to make it worth it's keep, the tree will pull the nutrients out of the limb and let it dry out (die). That's an intelligent decision. Trees also know when to break bud in the spring and drop leaves in the fall, which will vary according to weather and the trees health, how to wall off decay, etc. All of which points to the fact that the tree has its own intelligence. Trees make thousands of decisions and communicate within communities in ways that show a high level of intelligence, and that science is just beginning to scratch the surface of understanding.
Nahh, There is a difference between a good crown clean on a mature tree and a apple. Both apply. Lions tailing is lions tailing and that is not crown cleaning. Simple stuff.. A good crown clean can open up light to the interior foliage and slow the interior decline, giving more options for reduction cuts as the tree ages.. Crossing rubbing, there is a point where things should be left alone. I could go on and on, but you should know this already and if you don't I doubt you'd listen.
 

Daniel

Well-Known Member
#48
If its too busy in the center of a young tree, which is common in specific species, very often the case in maples, then I consider the interior pruning to be structural pruning, not cleaning. Perhaps a matter of semantics, but just the language of "cleaning" infers that trees are naturally dirty and need to be cleaned. I can speak to pruning northeastern hardwoods, which when mature don't need to be "cleaned"... The pruning standards still refer to crown cleaning and raising without any warnings to times they should not be done which is about 15 years out of date in my practices.
 

RopeShield

Well-Known Member
#49
think you are confusing terms.
Young tree training is very specific.
Crown cleaning is an attempt to remove unproductive growth, poor contributors, reduncies etc. Dirty? why are going there? Timing, crown raising? We know tons of shit about pruning. Is it all in one place? No? Couple of good books, local pros, horticulture and botanical gdn resources, European resources are great.
Pruning standards are what? A place to start, for who? For the inesperienced, uneducated etc. It is not an authority by any stretch of the imagination.

Just add there is nothing wrong with a clean tree. Allowing light and air to penetrate a crown can help strengthen trees/cell growth/produce photosynthates. Limb wood is photosynthetic. Its like a big LEAF.
And like a leaf, they can shut down. Maybe that is why SLD occurrs. |Just thinking a loud at this point| sorry for the distraction. You heard it hear 1st :nocausagracia:
 

Daniel

Well-Known Member
#52
think you are confusing terms.
Young tree training is very specific.
Crown cleaning is an attempt to remove unproductive growth, poor contributors, reduncies etc. Dirty? why are going there? Timing, crown raising? We know tons of shit about pruning. Is it all in one place? No? Couple of good books, local pros, horticulture and botanical gdn resources, European resources are great.
Pruning standards are what? A place to start, for who? For the inesperienced, uneducated etc. It is not an authority by any stretch of the imagination.

Just add there is nothing wrong with a clean tree. Allowing light and air to penetrate a crown can help strengthen trees/cell growth/produce photosynthates. Limb wood is photosynthetic. Its like a big LEAF.
And like a leaf, they can shut down. Maybe that is why SLD occurrs. |Just thinking a loud at this point| sorry for the distraction. You heard it hear 1st :nocausagracia:

I AM good to agree to disagree here, and want to keep an open mind... Is there any science to back up your perspective that "there is nothing wrong with a clean tree" or that "Allowing light and air to penetrate a crown can help strengthen trees/cell growth/produce photosynthates." That sounds like you are quoting science.. not just making it up... I would honestly like to know if there is any science behind these statements..

Or that there is such a thing as "unproductive growth" or "poor contributors"... Maybe I missed it but I have never even heard of the last two terms.... Again that language seems very human-centric..

In the mean time I did some reduction pruning on four big oaks today.. All this brush is just from the two seen, and all the cuts were made on only the limbs growing out over the street... nothing from the back side. tough to see on the small screen but those are big piles of brush.. Only cuts anywhere even close to the interior were deadwood..

Second pic was juts one cut of many made on a third tree not seen here. that cut was from the end of one big heavy limb.... May have been a stress crack in it... took a lot of weight off without creating the need for compartmentalization on the main stem ... I have confidence that those reduced limbs will now survive just about any ice storm.
 

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Redtree

Active Member
#53
I like some of what all of you are saying. I think so many arboricultural terms are taken out of context and understandably misunderstood.
So this post relates to the basics in that beginners reading hear need to hear all the points made around certain terms as many arborists, myself included, are habing failures in communication. something id said and I'm picturing something else by taking the terminology into a different context.
Thinning gets looked at as gutting, as it leads people to think of "thinning out", which isn't an arboricultural term. I used to trash the term for this. Now I know better. Thinning can go wrong when applied wrong, as it often is. Sometimes cutting too close to the core of the crown. It is beneficial, when properly applied, within the periphery or outermost part of the crown.
Crown cleaning I'll have to look up but spacing, rubbing branches, and deadwooding generally takes care of itself in many hard and soft hardwoods, as Daniel may have already suggested. I also think certain times spacing, rubbing, and deadwood is better off "corrected", not just for looks, sometimes for safety and sometimes benefiting tree lingevity.
Hardwood is perhaps the worst term for a beginner to read. There is a huge difference between hard woods and hardwoods. Likewise, soft wood and softwoods. Silver maple is a 'soft hardwood', a term I've been trying to use and suggest using. We should not even use the term 'hardwood'. We should use the term 'dicot' or 'broadleaf'. I guess Im only using the term soft hardwood to highlight the issue. pointing to the problem instead of the solution. so use soft hardwood when someone says hardwood and perhaps otherwise focus on the term broadleaf as its easier to understand for most than dicot. Found these following screenshots from my Google search. The one statement is out of line when considering Larch, a deciduous softwood amd Ginko, a broadleaf softwood. When i say i have a bigboy, its a beauty of a folding saw. If i say i have a big boy it means my 14 year old son just grew taller than my 5 foot sister. amazing what a space can do. A space that the ear can't see when talking but the eye sees when reading.


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RopeShield

Well-Known Member
#54
Bigger and tastier peaches. Any orchardist, nut grower, learns this from their associated production manuals. Forester has alot of the same practical and acedemic knowledge/Silviculture.
It is all science based. quantifiable, qualitative and quantative observation with one goal.
Healthier, more productive stuffs for the benefit of human.
 
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Redtree

Active Member
#55
Good example Dan of a species that really backs up what you were saying earlier about reducing lateral limbs and leaving uprights. looks like a Red Oak. White oak might be true to this point even more, as I have seen the odd vigorous Red that could use reduction or more often thinning of the extremities of the verticles. So for the beginners, what is true in one case is often untrue in another case even given two trees of the same species. What are all the variables? species, level of vigor, exposure (look for recently increased exposure, ie. loss of adjacent significant trees) severity and presence of defects, soil type and stability, significance of targets.

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evo

Well-Known Member
#56
I AM good to agree to disagree here, and want to keep an open mind... Is there any science to back up your perspective that "there is nothing wrong with a clean tree" or that "Allowing light and air to penetrate a crown can help strengthen trees/cell growth/produce photosynthates." That sounds like you are quoting science.. not just making it up... I would honestly like to know if there is any science behind these statements..

Or that there is such a thing as "unproductive growth" or "poor contributors"... Maybe I missed it but I have never even heard of the last two terms.... Again that language seems very human-centric..

In the mean time I did some reduction pruning on four big oaks today.. All this brush is just from the two seen, and all the cuts were made on only the limbs growing out over the street... nothing from the back side. tough to see on the small screen but those are big piles of brush.. Only cuts anywhere even close to the interior were deadwood..

Second pic was juts one cut of many made on a third tree not seen here. that cut was from the end of one big heavy limb.... May have been a stress crack in it... took a lot of weight off without creating the need for compartmentalization on the main stem ... I have confidence that those reduced limbs will now survive just about any ice storm.
What’s the deal bucket couldn’t reach the back side?
 
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Daniel

Well-Known Member
#59
Bigger and tastier peaches. Any orchardist, nut grower, learns this from their associated production manuals. Forester has alot of the same practical and acedemic knowledge/Silviculture.
It is all science based. quantifiable, qualitative and quantative observation with one goal.
Healthier, more productive stuffs for the benefit of human.

Yes for fruit trees... so guess that means you don't know of any science to back it up on hardwoods... OK.. please explain ... how does bigger fruit with less bumps and bruises translate to a healthier hardwood...
 
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