Arboreal Symbiotic Integration Harnesses

jomoco

Active Member
As I've already stated, I only believe that cables should be installed to help support a genuine defect in the tree's structure, period.

The irony for me is that so much of my cabling work is to replace old cables in trees that should never have been cabled in the first place. Driving home the fact that trees do indeed become dependent on cables for life, whether needed or not?

But yes, my disdain is for all dynamic cabling systems used in the tree industry, as well as the arborists that install them, rather than the traditional steel systems that have worked so well for so long.

jomoco
 

Tree_Frog

Active Member
[ QUOTE ]
You don't think utility lines are subject to dynamic loading?

Then why do they use all steel inline compression springs?
...

jomoco

[/ QUOTE ]

Inline compression springs dampen shock load forces on the anchor points. And yes utility lines are subject to dynamic loading.

But this is neither the question nor answer. Your argument stems from contempt that no other system avaliable is correct to use. Am I correct?

To limit yourself to one protocol is great for your competition. To be overly concerned about litigation will drive you out of business. To have you cup full on teqniques and ideas is terminal. Trees retrench to survive the changing world around us. Why not follow their lead.
 

Tree_Frog

Active Member
[ QUOTE ]


The irony for me is that so much of my cabling work is to replace old cables in trees that should never have been cabled in the first place. Driving home the fact that trees do indeed become dependent on cables for life, whether needed or not?

jomoco

[/ QUOTE ]

Why recable a tree that did not need it in the first place? Why not use your current technique in your post using dynamic cabling for retraining and develop reaction wood on the tree instead. With proper reduction and thinning you could use an annual elongation of a dynamic system to slowly retrench the tree to a form that is desirable for the non-existing defect over a 10-20 year period.

See it all depends on application.
 

SRTsteve860

Active Member
[ QUOTE ]
Install your 8 ton cobra system to specs in a codominant white alder, then load it to just 2 tons of tension and see what happens! Two nicely girdled leaders facing imminent death!


[/ QUOTE ]

jomoco, forgive me if I am completely off here for I am just starting to develop a real understanding of tree bracing, but for what I have read and learned, cobra is not supposed to be put under any real tension when installed. By company instructions, when it is spliced around the branches, it is to be set into tension by hand, essentially just taking remaining slack out of the system.

Cobra is not meant to constantly provide support like steel cable would. Rather it is "always there" at times of loading that the tree is unable to handle on its own. If installed properly, cobra will assist the tree in times of extreme loading, weather it be wind/snow/ice but during regular seasonal weather, it will not supplement the trees natural strength.

-Steve
 

jomoco

Active Member
Folks who install Cobra systems despite their obvious flaws deserve to be sued in my opinion.

I've stated those flaws in no uncertain terms. But it seems to go in one ear then right out the other without registering in the least.

You guys seem to think Cobra is not susceptible to abrasion, high temps or chewing animals in the same sense that galvanized steel is. You're wrong, you know it, yet persist in your obstinance for reasons that elude me entirely.

If it takes a court of law ruling against you to open your eyes? Then so be it.

But remember, we're talking about people's lives here potentially, and some folks value their lives quite highly.

jomoco
 

jomoco

Active Member
Think about it Steve. What use is a 2,4,6 or 8 ton rating if you can't come anywhere close to those ratings without girdling the attachment leaders?

What difference does it make if the girdling occurs during a storm? The leaders will still die, defeating the purpose of cabling them in the first place.

Whereas I can cable that same white alder with a traditional steel system, load it to capacity, with no fear of girdling either leader.

Alders, birches and a long list of other fragile barked trees can be cabled in the traditional method and loaded to rated capacities without girdling. Try that with Cobra and watch what happens mate!

Jomoco
 

Jeff_Cochran

Well-Known Member
Install your 8 ton cobra system to specs in a codominant white alder, then load it to just 2 tons of tension and see what happens! Two nicely girdled leaders facing imminent death!

#1 Who loads a dynamic system to have 2 tons of static pressure on all the time? Cobra cabling systems are meant to be a catastrophic failure deterrent. The systems even have a rubber insert that softens the load and helps prevent the karate chop effect in a high wind situation.

Just like the Rig Guy cable ends you don't like the Cobra system is effective and will meet the clients needs given the proper site conditions warrant a dynamic support system.

#2 Who tells a client that a cabling system is good for 20 years? Cycles to failure, Cycles to failure, Cycles to failure! There is a reason that we are supposed to inspect any support system yearly and I add to that: a climbing inspection every two to five years, and that is static or dynamic support systems steel or fiber.
 

Jeff_Cochran

Well-Known Member
Folks who install Cobra systems despite their obvious flaws deserve to be sued in my opinion.

I've stated those flaws in no uncertain terms. But it seems to go in one ear then right out the other without registering in the least.

You guys seem to think Cobra is not susceptible to abrasion, high temps or chewing animals in the same sense that galvanized steel is. You're wrong, you know it, yet persist in your obstinance for reasons that elude me entirely.

If it takes a court of law ruling against you to open your eyes? Then so be it.

But remember, we're talking about people's lives here potentially, and some folks value their lives quite highly.

jomoco


JO, ^^^^^^^ REALLY!^^^^^^^

I think you have been smokin' to much of that stuff legalized in Cali. Did you lose a contract to someone who like cobra here lately? Cause you are trying your best to put the smack down on a perfectly legit product. A product that when used in the right application does the job it was designed for and does it well.
 

Jeff_Cochran

Well-Known Member
If there isn't a load on the cobra system the tree does not experience a girdling effect unless the cobra system was installed wrong and put in to tight. The cobra system was designed with secondary meristematic growth in mind. Personally, I think annual end weight reduction and subordination techniques used along with cobra could effectively end the need for static or dynamic support in a tree if done correctly over a ten year period. The problem lies not in the techniques or the systems used but the customer, who is going to pay for that yearly inspection? who is going to pay for that annual visit? No one. They are going to go with the company that tells them problem solved in one visit wether or not it is. Then if something fails it was the trees fault not the last company that worked on it, or the fact that the customer contracts the lowest bidder most of the time instead of the most qualified.
 

jomoco

Active Member
[ QUOTE ]
Install your 8 ton cobra system to specs in a codominant white alder, then load it to just 2 tons of tension and see what happens! Two nicely girdled leaders facing imminent death!

#1 Who loads a dynamic system to have 2 tons of static pressure on all the time? Cobra cabling systems are meant to be a catastrophic failure deterrent. The systems even have a rubber insert that softens the load and helps prevent the karate chop effect in a high wind situation.

.

[/ QUOTE ]

Who said anything about all the time Jeff? All it takes is one good gust of wind on a single occasion to girdle a white alder cabled with Cobra.

You're in the southwest and should be quite familiar with just how fragile the bark and cambium of a white alder (Alnus rhombifolia) is.

You can't even step on a white alder limb without ripping the bark off it Jeff, and you know it.

jomoco
 

jomoco

Active Member
Oops! For some reason I thought you were in Arizona.

Of what use is a cabling system that can't be loaded without girdling at the attachment points Jeff?

jomoco
 

jomoco

Active Member
I have girdled lots of white alders with rigging ropes while removing them, birches too.

And since Cobra systems are snake oil in my opinion, I certainly have no hands on experience installing them.

I've watctched videos of how easy it is though. Almost like stringing x-mas lights. Though they don't weaken the limbs they're installed on the way both steel and dynamic cabling systems do!

Proof of the fact that cabling a limb weakens it can be easily proven by simply cutting an old cable supporting a large limb after rigging it to relieve the tautness of the cable gradually. Then wait to see if it breaks immediately?

Ever girdle a tree with a rigging rope on a static pull Dylan?

jomoco
 

Tree_Frog

Active Member
[ QUOTE ]


And since Cobra systems are snake oil in my opinion, I certainly have no hands on experience installing them.


jomoco

[/ QUOTE ]


This explains a lot.

Keep in mind that you yourself disprove your own position on your hanging plant idea.
 

jomoco

Active Member
Let me spell it out for yu.

Trees respond to force/weight by developing reaction wood to support that weight.

Cables whether static or dynamic, lessen the amount of force/weight exertted on the tree/branch, thereby weakening it to the point it becomes dependent on said cable for its structural integrity.

Now I'll grant you that a dynamic cable may not weaken a branch to the same extent that a static steel cable does. The fact that it does weaken the branch to some degree compared to a natural uncabled branch is the flaw.

The pertinent point being that the dynamic synthetic cable is an inferior material to support the tree with for life, in terms of both its ability to withstand natural forces in its own environment like, abrasion, chewing rodents, fire UV degradation etc, as well as its ability to be loaded to rated capacities without serious damage to its attachment points to the degree it defeats the entire purpose of cabling in the first place.

You can't expect to replace anything with something inferior to its predecessor, see?

If dynamic motion is your objective?

Then do it like the responsible and smart folks who built America's utility infrastructure have done for a hundred years for goodness sakes. Use steel inline compression springs that are pretty much invulnerable to abrasion, chewing animals, high temps and UV degradation etc.

Do you believe in common sense being applied to critical overhead infrastructure in our high traffic pedestrian communities?

Speak up you CA's pushing this Cobra snake oil.

Explain yourselves in clearly comprehensible engineering terms if you can?

Make like you're in court because a pedestrian got brained from your hair brained installation that a rat chewed through, or a rain gutter leaf fire melted, or was forgotten by the new owners who had no idea that the tree over their bedroom was cabled synthetically and had to be replaced each 12 years?

We thought it was a galvanized steel cable your honor. Isn't that what responsible professional tree companies have used for the last 100 years?

jomoco
 
[ QUOTE ]
You can't expect to replace anything with something inferior to its predecessor, see?

[/ QUOTE ]

Replace 800lbs of tree with 800lbs of hardware and potted plants. Argue this crap is superior to natural storage organs and photosynthetic inputs.

WINNING!
 

Tree_Frog

Active Member
[ QUOTE ]
How so TF?

Try to use engineering terms and logic please?

jomoco

[/ QUOTE ]

I was hoping it would not come to this but here ya go.

If your hatred for dynamic cabling is merited, in your opinon, then it should be across the board. You state that the systems do not hold up and are subject to outside forces,weather, sun, vermin, etc. You continue to state that a dynamic system will girdle a tree, killing it. And your biggest argument is the liability in court.

Ok, good points. But this is why in your own tread you lose your argument.

You are designing a system to hold plants suspended by a tree. You are reverse engineering a cabling system by using weights to increase reaction wood. This goal does nothing to counter your argument between metal versus synthetic.

THIS IS WHERE YOUR LOGIC IS NOT SOUND.

Your whole system will fail due to environmental stress placed on the synthetics that you are buliding it with. That is right, YOU ARE USING SYNTHETIC MATERIALS TO BUILD YOUR WEIGHT BEARING SYSTEM.

This places you in a liability situation using products outside their scope of design.

You are using an expanding loop of synthetic rope to anchor your pulleys (That is what COBRA does). This is subject to weather, vermin, UV. You should be using through bolts with a captive eye for safety. Grade 8.

You are hanging plants by the irrigation lines that are not designed for above ground use and being in a constant state of tension. What is the elongation stress effect when incorporated with weather, heating/cooling, UV, etc. You should be using wire rope rated for the job.

Shall I go on.

You are using a synthetic line to anchor the plant to irrigation line. What is the UV hour rating of the line that you are using to suspend the plant, how well does that line withstand weather, What will be the effect of the line on the irrigation anchor, and at what point does slipage occur due to the expansion and contraction of the irrigation line during the watering cycle.

Are you notifying the client of the monthly inspection cycle and after all major weather events to see if this untested system will be safe. What is the life of the system. Or do we just guess when the brain bombs start falling on the grandkids.

If you listening to your own posts, AND AGREE WITH THEM, in no way would you be designing a suspension system using synthetic lines. This is where you disprove your own argument about using Cobra.

 
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