Inventors, Innovators - improvements for Arborist

M

Merle Nelson

Been here much more than a while
Location
SF Bay Area, CA
I have been wanting to start this thread for some time and today I get to open it on a upbeat note.

Sherrill tree is now carrying X-Rigging Rings. They are the original, real deal XRR not some cheaply made knock off. They are giving David Driver his due for bringing them to our industry. Kudos to Sherrill tree for doing the right thing.

I think it is important for us in the industry to expect and demand that the credit and the profit potential for any invention or innovation goes to the developer of same. More on this to follow....
 
Sherrill outsources products when it suits them to do so.
I imagine Sherrill's legal counsel was the real motivator to go through D. Driver instead of Antal.
 
How much recognition do Ken Johnson and Ed Hobbs receive for their lowering devices? "Anybody" can produce and market a lowering bollard (ratcheting or otherwise) these days.
At Expo last week, one of the vendors had an H2 for sale for several hundred $$$ less than even Bailey's sale price. I expressed suprise (Friday afternoon) that it didn't have a "Sold" sticker on it, and the vendor said that he figures a lot of folks probably don't have a clue what it is, or is used for.
 
Some companies have done what suits them with regard to making knock offs of an item and selling it with no regard to the original source of the idea or product. That is a part of why I have wanted to start this thread. How long do we as consumers/end users of these products want to let that go on?

I think if we give money and recognition to creative types we will get more.

I think if we let creative types be robbed and disrespected we will get less.

I would like to hear every story both good and bad of a person developing something that benefits you/us and how it went for them.

After I got onto the idea of using friction savers I came to the flexible conduit friction saver at some point. Bought one, liked it but it was too short. Bought a second longer one and used it till I damaged it one day. In replacing it I noticed that TreeStuff referred to “The original, Dan House friction saver.” Huh? - bought from them.

OMG this thing is made so much better, out of better products. My rope feeds through it better, and the ‘kink’ damage to my previous conduit probably would have not happened to this better made product. I didn’t even know I had bought a cheap knock off. Lets get the word out to one another through this thread.

I don’t know how to quantify the value that the Dan House Friction Saver has brought to my work life. I have been climbing a lot of years with my rope on the bark of the tree. Now, no more damage to sensitive barks, no pitch loading up my rope in sticky trees, consistent and reduced friction so I can do more productive roped maneuverers. Dan, if we are ever at the same event you can’t even buy your own drink or your own dinner, I want to buy it for you.

Inventive souls please weigh in. Only as we the consumer know what it actually cost you in dollars and heart ache and (?) when it went badly can we begin to see the value to ourselves by voting for or against you with our wallets.
 
I understand your position, and agree.

The catch is that sometimes the originator can't be found or given recognition.

If royalties were being handed out...Denny Moorehouse once asked. 'Who gets the check for carabiners?'The origin is lost in time.

I think that the first commercial throwbags came from New Tribe. They also innovated stand-up rope bags.

I'm confused by this though:

______ Only as we the consumer know what it actually cost you in dollars and heart ache and (?) when it went badly can we begin to see the value to ourselves by voting for or against you with our wallets._____

All of that info is buried in R&D or product development. Same as on the commercial tree care side...my clients don't need to know what my expenses are in order to make a decision. As long as I do a good job they can measure my performance.
 
I have always noticed that people who tend to give in life will often do far more for recognition and appreciation than a person would even do for money.

So with regard to Ken Johnson and Ed Hobbs, what would you say about their contribution? (I’m not at all familiar with Ken.) I think the next Ken and Ed may be reading this too.
 
Very good points Tom, and on some things who knows? Carabiners - well thank goodness for them.

Commercial throwbags and stand-up rope bags let me always say a word of thanks to New Tribe when I use them, they make me money, or I speak of them. (I’ll look up New Tribe to see if any of their bags fit my needs.) (And-this thread would benefit from any illumination of the story behind any of that.)

With regard to my thought that confuses you I would say. Lets use this thread to ‘unbury the facts’ because (I assert) it matters to us. If we are talking about paper plates for a party then yeah, who cares where you buy them. But using the example of the Dan House FS it matters to me to have the original quality - and I think it will matter to others that learn that too. Also it matters to me if Dan in encouraged or DIScouraged. (Remember this is just one example, that has occured to me.)

One inventor I have spoken to told me the things he could have bought and the things he could have done for his kids had he not spent the money developing and promoting his product. I would like for all of us to know that and other ‘buried facts’ so we can all decide intelligently who and what we want to support and encourage.

As the conversation develops and other examples come in perhaps this thought and other important points will be made more clear.
 
I've spent time wandering around patent filings to see some of the creations that people have dreamed up. Most of the ones that I can understand make me wonder why someone would create much less patent them. Not to be a wet blanket, I've confabulated a few things myself. So many patents are for things that seem useless or no market. Odd to think that someone would short change their family...at least too much.

Dan is a friend of mine. He found good materials and makes a great product. YOu should see some of his other creations!
 
And now for the rest of the story:

My first rope sleeve was made using flexible electrical conduit covered with a heavy gray plastic jacket in 1997. I found the sleeve greatly reduced friction and the gray plastic jacket gripped the bark well. I gave a few to friends and they quickly replaced their leathers sleeves. I sent a few samples to New Tribe and they became the first retail vendor of Dan House Rope Sleeves.

In 1999 John Gathright of Tree Climbing Japan told Peter Jenkins his dilemma in getting permission to climb trees with ropes. John took a few of my rope sleeves back to Japan and the Minister of Forests subjected them to grueling tests to see if any harm to the trees could happen. Imagine that they had a person sawing a rope back and forth thru a rope sleeve for hours to see what happens. You guessed it- one very tried person and no harm. John Gathright was granted permission contingent on the use of rope sleeves to protect the tree.

At the 2007 Rendezvous in Colorado, Mr. Elliot Su from Taiwan brought a version of sleeve that used a conduit with a black jacket. Everyone liked that it had a smaller bending radius so I switched to the ultra-flexible conduit. I still have some 1997 vintage old gray jacket sleeves and they are heavier and harder to bend. Since 2007 my rope sleeves are made with the ultra-flexible conduit in as short as 18” or as long as 60” for those monster limbs in the rain forest. Overall the combination of clean ropes that last longer, less friction for easier ascents plus being very easy to install results in a win-win-win situation for all.

In August of 2011 I was somewhat surprised to find that a well-known arborist supply house was selling yet another version of rope sleeves. I was never asked for the opportunity to add them as a vendor. I even added a review on their website suggesting the ends be taped bright colors to aid in use. Within a year reports from arborists started coming in about how cheap the conduit was being used and damage to ropes is not acceptable. I was able to conduct an autopsy on a broken sleeve and found they used imported conduit. And as the saying goes: “Always insist on an official Dan House Rope Sleeve”.

See you at the top!
Dan House
 
[ QUOTE ]

Dan is a friend of mine. He found good materials and makes a great product. YOu should see some of his other creations!

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Ahh!!!!!!! one of my points exactly Tom. How many more products, how much sooner would we see them if we as a community did a good job of taking care of the inventor?

I want to see what Dan has, at a time that is right for him, how can we make that time sooner? How can this thread contribute to that?

Also....Tom you fall squarely in this category too, I assert. You and Mark put in and we as a community get to benefit. At some time in this conversation it will be appropriate to make sure that you are getting enough back out. (In the mean time, don’t even try to tell me that you haven’t taken from your own situation and given and put in so that I and others can come here and have all this info. and camaraderie at our fingertips.)
 
So I guess we run into the question of ethics rather than legality, because if no one owns the patient on the item then it is free season...but it is "good" of a company to give credit to the person, or even better throw them some royalties. But I don't know enough about patient law to shake a stick at it...

I like the idea that Sherrill is at least giving credit where credit is due on the rigging rings, regardless of the motivations behind it.

I have also seen those Buckingham bags which look like a direct copy of the Sherrill bag. Now I dont know if Sherrill sold that idea to Buckingham or if they just copied it, But I thought it was pretty lame that all they did was change the color...
 
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I think it is important for us in the industry to expect and demand that the credit and the profit potential for any invention or innovation goes to the developer of same. More on this to follow....

[/ QUOTE ]sounds great in an ideal world, but come on really?
If it is not patented... Pretty sure Any one can do what ever they want. That's business right? Wrong morally and/or ethically it's still legal.
Am I wrong?

I have several innovations I consider possibly game changers, no not the bungee cords or hot air ballons! Stuff my lawyer has advised me to keep quiet about oh and pay thousands of dollars to protect.
 
Watch "Shark Tank" or the original "Dragon's Den" to learn a bit about the process of bringing a product to the marketplace.

Inventors must learn to protect their inventions through patenting, copyrighting and more importantly vigilantly defending those by pursuing those that infringe those protections. While they make a conscious decision to invest time and money and sacrifice for the creation of new product they do so with the notion that there will be a reward and possibly a very large one in return. Nothing comes without risk.

We as consumers will vote with our wallets. Not to say solely based on price but more so on value. Herein lies another concept that inventors and entrepreneurs must understand and embrace. They must be able to convey the value of their product to the consumer at the decision making stage. There are plenty of examples of overpriced duds out there that were poorly made.

As for retailers sourcing cheaper alternatives, that is simply the market in action. When cash is king we look for more affordable alternatives. I've done this with the throwline cube. I couldn't afford the Falteimer initially so I bought the knock offs. In the end I finally did buy one when I could justify the expenditure and it has proved to be a great value. The same can't be said about other original manufacturer's products.

In the end, it's up to the inventor to convey the value of their product to the market and not rely on a "build it and they will come" plan.
 
Does anyone know of any other inventors they can invite to weigh in and tell their own stories? I spoke to a couple who said they would. I also spoke to one who said he did not think it would be advantageous for him to speak out now.

Along the way I was told a story about an arborist product that a company saw and liked, researched and found that there was no patent on it. They patented it, brought it out themselves and ‘legally’ stole it from the original inventor. Now they vigorously defend against patent infringements. No need to put names to this second hand story at this point but, what if it were common knowledge that this kind of un-ethical activity were being talked about? What if any future infractions had very measurable financial repercussions?
 
“The original inventor’? Well that sounds like a story that would be incredibly valuable to have accurately relayed. Could you get the person to tell it in his own words?

The basic premise and story of a product being poached/stolen is a sadly common one. So common in fact that it is listed earlier in this thread and in quite a few other places on the Buzz as the reason we are not hearing about more inventions and innovations.
 
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